mhardy6647
Grand Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2019
- Messages
- 12,447
- Likes
- 27,310
... or the Boeing 737 MAX.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]
- Thread starter klettermann
- Start date
Agreed!
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2024
- Messages
- 701
- Likes
- 2,174
Obsession is a characteristic of the person, not the particular hobby. DSP is simply one more possible angle that the obsessive audio hobbyist can use. (I don't use DSP, and I'm quite happy.)
People can obsess over almost anything ... cars, appliances, guns, gambling or collecting stuff. In fact, one of the most obsessive audio hobbyists I knew (he's dead now) was a fanatic about collecting every example of certain recordings that were on the market ... like the Brandenburg Concertos, or every Czerny symphony. So not every obsession concentrates on the equipment. Some concentrates on the music.
I think it's only excessive when it causes problems for the person or those around them. Otherwise, it's just ... a little kooky.
Jim
People can obsess over almost anything ... cars, appliances, guns, gambling or collecting stuff. In fact, one of the most obsessive audio hobbyists I knew (he's dead now) was a fanatic about collecting every example of certain recordings that were on the market ... like the Brandenburg Concertos, or every Czerny symphony. So not every obsession concentrates on the equipment. Some concentrates on the music.
I think it's only excessive when it causes problems for the person or those around them. Otherwise, it's just ... a little kooky.
Jim
mhardy6647
Grand Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2019
- Messages
- 12,447
- Likes
- 27,310
Way more obsessive to obsess over things like the choice of specific brands and types of capacitors, resistors, and, of course, vacuum tubes -- especially when synergy is taken into account. The permutations quickly approach infinite.
And even the poor folks stuck with nothing but (ahem) Schiity hardware full of ICs populating PC boards can play, too -- there are OP AMPS to roll... and we ain't gettin' any younger!
And even the poor folks stuck with nothing but (ahem) Schiity hardware full of ICs populating PC boards can play, too -- there are OP AMPS to roll... and we ain't gettin' any younger!
Petrushka
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2024
- Messages
- 842
- Likes
- 807
Obsessive people gravitate to fiddly things.[rant]
As I remember my days as a college student, there was always some rich kid with a fabulous stereo. It would be a pair of AR 2a's, maybe a Phase Linear amp, a Dynaco preamp (or maybe Pioneer receiver). You get the idea. Speakers went wherever they fit in a dorm cubicle room, not a thought about acoustics or much else. We all thought it sounded fabulous! Fast forward a few years later as we advanced to fancier stuff. McIntosh! KEF! Maybe Magneplaners for the oddballs. Still, little thought about acoustics except to do the best you could. If you were fancy maybe some kind of equalizer. But no SPL sweeps, no waterfalls, measurements, none of that. Somehow we still managed and enjoyed the results. Who had the ability to obsess about a 1/8 octive 10dB null at 74Hz?
Fast forward to now. DSP now allows us to tweak to a degree previously unimaginable. Pefection seems theoreticaly attainable, though perhaps always just out of reach. Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can? I'm finding myself increasingly drawn into the DSP rabbit hole (I refer to 2ch, HT/video is another matter). This distrubs me, cause I think my system already sounds damn good. The perfect has become the enemy of the good. God save us all.
[/rant]
On the other hand, Sonos, Wiim, many AVRs, and lots of other devices offer semi-automated room correction.
I think the majority of people just want to set it and forget it.
Petrushka
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2024
- Messages
- 842
- Likes
- 807
It takes a computer to really crash.... or the Boeing 737 MAX.
mhardy6647
Grand Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2019
- Messages
- 12,447
- Likes
- 27,310
some truth to that.
explains the popularity of so-called trophy spouses, I suppose.
EERecordist
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2024
- Messages
- 312
- Likes
- 434
Hahaha, I remember those dorm sessions with the Dark Side of the Moon! In my college era, I had a Dynaco PAT-4 I built, and a power amp I built with Motorola power Darlingtons from an application note, a phono preamp I built from an AES paper, a Philips GA312/V15-IV, an Otari MX-5050, and EPI100s. It was a very economical system.[rant]
As I remember my days as a college student, there was always some rich kid with a fabulous stereo. It would be a pair of AR 2a's, maybe a Phase Linear amp, a Dynaco preamp (or maybe Pioneer receiver). You get the idea. Speakers went wherever they fit in a dorm cubicle room, not a thought about acoustics or much else. We all thought it sounded fabulous! Fast forward a few years later as we advanced to fancier stuff. McIntosh! KEF! Maybe Magneplaners for the oddballs. Still, little thought about acoustics except to do the best you could. If you were fancy maybe some kind of equalizer. But no SPL sweeps, no waterfalls, measurements, none of that. Somehow we still managed and enjoyed the results. Who had the ability to obsess about a 1/8 octive 10dB null at 74Hz?
Fast forward to now. DSP now allows us to tweak to a degree previously unimaginable. Pefection seems theoreticaly attainable, though perhaps always just out of reach. Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can? I'm finding myself increasingly drawn into the DSP rabbit hole (I refer to 2ch, HT/video is another matter). This distrubs me, cause I think my system already sounds damn good. The perfect has become the enemy of the good. God save us all.
[/rant]
In the mid-1970s, the UREI Sonipulse was introduced, completing the 1/3 octave graphic equalizers and UREI 565 Little Dipper parametric filter of the time. The Sonipluse, like the Spinorama and other room EQ systems, sends out a chirp containing all the frequencies. Then it received the chirp with microphone, passed it through a 1/3rd octave filter, then to a meter. So room EQ has been with us for at least 50 years. The little dipper was a great PA feedback eliminator. You could switch it to peak boost, find your feedback frequencies, then switch it to cut at those frequencies.
We used it in our control rooms, concert halls, and in a large outdoor amphitheater. One Saturday morning, using it outside, we woke up sleepers who were probably unhappy.
Last edited:
DSP is like money. It can be used for good or evil.
The JBL M2, Genelec, Neumann, and Meyer Sound speakers could be achieved with enough analog development but the DSP is sort of the reflection of premium drivers, cabinet AND DSP.
If anything, it shows how low cost amplification, DACs and ADCs are transparent.
MattHooper
Master Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 8,316
- Likes
- 13,985
I first noticed this as a longtime member over on the AVSForums.
Over there, they were plenty of people seemingly obsessed with subwoofers, whether it was DIY or commercial, and people integrating them into Home theatres, as well as two channel.
There was the constant mantra that “ no Soundsystem was complete or could reach his potential without well integrated subwoofers.”
But every time I would dive into the long threads, I couldn’t help but become aware of the enormous amount of effort and time so many of these people were putting into this.
All the extra equipment, the computers, microphones. It was measure…tweak….measure…tweak….measure… add infinitum, looking for the perfect measurement results.
There would be people saying things like
“ finally after six months I think I’ve got my subs dialled in!”
That kind of stuff kept me from bothering with subwoofers for quite a while. Until I finally gave in and bought double subs, crossover, DSP for the subs.
My room was redesigned with a help of an accusation so speakers tend to sound excellent in there. But of course it’s not a magic solution for bass frequencies. Even though I was quite happy with how my Thiel speakers sounded , I was actually Not looking forward to seeing the room measurements. It was sort of a “ better not to know” scenario to my mind: I was quite happy, do I really want to see some frequency bulge made explicit in measurements so now I absolutely knew it was there? Doesn’t seem like a good step for reducing OCD tendencies
Anyway, I tried all of it, with room correction. The sound did get more “flat” In the bass frequencies, but I just didn’t end up liking it as much. I liked the extra punch I have been getting without all the rigmarole, and all of it slightly changed the tone and timbre of sound in a way I didn’t care for.
So I got rid of it all and I was happy to see it all go and get back to a simpler system.
That’s not to say it completely cured my audiophile tendencies of course. When I switched in my Joseph audio speakers for the Thiels, I got generally terrific bass response, but I did go chasing a little bit of a bump in the bass frequencies. In this case I chose another route, which was trying various coupling and decoupling materials under the speaker, playing with position and height, just using my ears. It was extensive experimentation, admittedly, almost obsessive for a while, but I was having tons of fun and totally fascinated, and ended up with truly fantastic results.
It’s not perfect, of course, but I’ve given up on perfect, because moving in one direction seems to take away in another, so I’ve been “ done” with my system for quite a while.
(I did room correction for my Home Theatre set up long ago with my AV receiver, but I tend to prefer the sound without the room correction)
Over there, they were plenty of people seemingly obsessed with subwoofers, whether it was DIY or commercial, and people integrating them into Home theatres, as well as two channel.
There was the constant mantra that “ no Soundsystem was complete or could reach his potential without well integrated subwoofers.”
But every time I would dive into the long threads, I couldn’t help but become aware of the enormous amount of effort and time so many of these people were putting into this.
All the extra equipment, the computers, microphones. It was measure…tweak….measure…tweak….measure… add infinitum, looking for the perfect measurement results.
There would be people saying things like
“ finally after six months I think I’ve got my subs dialled in!”
That kind of stuff kept me from bothering with subwoofers for quite a while. Until I finally gave in and bought double subs, crossover, DSP for the subs.
My room was redesigned with a help of an accusation so speakers tend to sound excellent in there. But of course it’s not a magic solution for bass frequencies. Even though I was quite happy with how my Thiel speakers sounded , I was actually Not looking forward to seeing the room measurements. It was sort of a “ better not to know” scenario to my mind: I was quite happy, do I really want to see some frequency bulge made explicit in measurements so now I absolutely knew it was there? Doesn’t seem like a good step for reducing OCD tendencies
Anyway, I tried all of it, with room correction. The sound did get more “flat” In the bass frequencies, but I just didn’t end up liking it as much. I liked the extra punch I have been getting without all the rigmarole, and all of it slightly changed the tone and timbre of sound in a way I didn’t care for.
So I got rid of it all and I was happy to see it all go and get back to a simpler system.
That’s not to say it completely cured my audiophile tendencies of course. When I switched in my Joseph audio speakers for the Thiels, I got generally terrific bass response, but I did go chasing a little bit of a bump in the bass frequencies. In this case I chose another route, which was trying various coupling and decoupling materials under the speaker, playing with position and height, just using my ears. It was extensive experimentation, admittedly, almost obsessive for a while, but I was having tons of fun and totally fascinated, and ended up with truly fantastic results.
It’s not perfect, of course, but I’ve given up on perfect, because moving in one direction seems to take away in another, so I’ve been “ done” with my system for quite a while.
(I did room correction for my Home Theatre set up long ago with my AV receiver, but I tend to prefer the sound without the room correction)
absolutely agree. I look at photos and videos of audiophiles who simply have not yet understood that there is no point in changing devices every week, if the system and speakers are poorly positioned. This is a fairly common problem. Clearly, you often have to deal with a room that is often also a study, living room or bedroom. At that point, clearly, if you cannot do without being able to position the speakers correctly, at least with DSP and EQ you can solve it. But if you do not even want to resort to "electronics" ...
MattHooper
Master Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 8,316
- Likes
- 13,985
I think it’s good to remember how happy I think most of us were with our various systems in the past, and how many audiophiles have systems that blew them away well before DSP became available.
DSP… another thing for us to obsess over…
DSP… another thing for us to obsess over…
Agree with @Jim Taylor that neurotic or obsessive behavior with regard to one's system is nothing new, and is not to be blamed on the equipment.
"Audiophilia nervosa" has been a thing for a long time, way before REW hit the scene. The objects used to soothe its symptoms were simply cables, preamps, acoustic treatments, special rocks, whatever.
At least DSP works and its effects are easily observable.
I use DSP on my system but I'm not all tweak-o about it. I get a good measurement, then I call it good and get back to listening. It probably prevents me from turning neurotic about it, because at least I have some tangible source of confidence that my system actually IS good and I haven't tricked myself into thinking it's good.
"Audiophilia nervosa" has been a thing for a long time, way before REW hit the scene. The objects used to soothe its symptoms were simply cables, preamps, acoustic treatments, special rocks, whatever.
At least DSP works and its effects are easily observable.
I use DSP on my system but I'm not all tweak-o about it. I get a good measurement, then I call it good and get back to listening. It probably prevents me from turning neurotic about it, because at least I have some tangible source of confidence that my system actually IS good and I haven't tricked myself into thinking it's good.
Last edited:
The only DSP I use is a Waxwing to eliminate most of the pops and other surface noise when I decide to play a record for a change. I'm satisfied just using PEQ to make things sound right to me.
This phenomenon has little to do with just DSP. The thing is that most forum members apply actual tangible knowledge to improve their systems. Using DSP is just a small part of the complete picture.
I don’t think it is any more or less neurotic that Jon Snowing through Audiophelia. It’s just a hell lot more efficient
Hmmm...Audiophelia might make a good name for a daughter.
MattHooper
Master Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 8,316
- Likes
- 13,985
Exactly.
This is precisely what I have always said here as well. The obsession and tinkering isn’t in the equipment. It’s in the individual.
This is why I have pushed back sometimes on the idea often suggested here that “ educating yourself to buy well engineered equipment will get you off the audiophile merry-go-round.”
Not really. For some folks sure. But that’s going to depend on the individual. As we can see on ASR, even when you take a measurement based approach, there’s still plenty to obsess over and tinker with.
Audiophiles are going to audiophile.
Some non-technical audiophiles are happy with Klipsch speakers for most of their life.
Others will cycle through equipment. Which isn’t a problem in itself because that’s what somebody might just enjoy. Trying out different gear.
Likewise, for a more technically oriented audiophile, who may play with all sorts of different gear and not really be “ finished with the hobby” just because he’s bought some well measuring equipment.
Totally individual.
that's what I do too!!
I have three subwoofers parked, I tried and tried again, but it always gave me a strange effect. I also used the AV preamps, with the possibility of changing the setting....I didn't understand anything!! in the end I dismantled everything, put it aside and with my simple system I started playing with the speakers and the acoustic treatment, ASC tube traps....I had fun, and for months now I've been listening to music without worrying about anything, just writing a few posts around here. No more tests, no cables, microphones, instructions, manuals, the same track to try to understand...I listen to music and nothing more!!!The issue with DSP is it's too complex/fiddly (IMHO) and the more its made available in devices, the more opportunity for it to be used incorrectly.
In many cases it's sold as a "no effort" panacea but if you havent done the hard yards with room treatments and speaker/seat positioning AND have some secondary way to validate the result (i.e. use Dirac but check with REW) then you do more damage than good.
And we are now at a point where some products "just" need you to wave around a smart phone to get measurements and all done.
And if you want to get serious, it aint for everyone... RT60's, water fall's, frequency response graphs... all a bit of an over load.
Even for a geek like me I find REW, from an end user experience, really bad (IMHO).
Even the hardware side is a pain. Calibrated mic, mic/usb interface device, a PC.
I have done the rounds on this, use a DEQX HDP-4 but of late I have been running it in pass thru mode (I still get value from it with it's multiple XLR outs, USB in and reliable volume control given I drive my amps direct). Plus I got 50% off the retail price as a store demo unit !!!.
Why run it pass thru?... cause I cant be buggered re-measuring my room after moving my speakers a bit... but I am getting old and grumpy and just want to spin tunes, not go down a rabbit hole.
It all sounds fine to my ear so that's good enough.
So yeah, like many things is this hobby, it can make you neurotic simply because its looks so easy... but it aint.
Peter
In many cases it's sold as a "no effort" panacea but if you havent done the hard yards with room treatments and speaker/seat positioning AND have some secondary way to validate the result (i.e. use Dirac but check with REW) then you do more damage than good.
And we are now at a point where some products "just" need you to wave around a smart phone to get measurements and all done.
And if you want to get serious, it aint for everyone... RT60's, water fall's, frequency response graphs... all a bit of an over load.
Even for a geek like me I find REW, from an end user experience, really bad (IMHO).
Even the hardware side is a pain. Calibrated mic, mic/usb interface device, a PC.
I have done the rounds on this, use a DEQX HDP-4 but of late I have been running it in pass thru mode (I still get value from it with it's multiple XLR outs, USB in and reliable volume control given I drive my amps direct). Plus I got 50% off the retail price as a store demo unit !!!.
Why run it pass thru?... cause I cant be buggered re-measuring my room after moving my speakers a bit... but I am getting old and grumpy and just want to spin tunes, not go down a rabbit hole.
It all sounds fine to my ear so that's good enough.
So yeah, like many things is this hobby, it can make you neurotic simply because its looks so easy... but it aint.
Peter
I am with you on this Brother (or Sister or They) Mikig!!!
I do have 40 test tracks which I still use so when I (rarely) make a positional change I run thru these. I play each for about 10-20 seconds to gauge if "stuff" has changed so its all over in under 15 minutes.
Peter
Last edited:
