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Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]

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klettermann

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[rant]
As I remember my days as a college student, there was always some rich kid with a fabulous stereo. It would be a pair of AR 2a's, maybe a Phase Linear amp, a Dynaco preamp (or maybe Pioneer receiver). You get the idea. Speakers went wherever they fit in a dorm cubicle room, not a thought about acoustics or much else. We all thought it sounded fabulous! Fast forward a few years later as we advanced to fancier stuff. McIntosh! KEF! Maybe Magneplaners for the oddballs. Still, little thought about acoustics except to do the best you could. If you were fancy maybe some kind of equalizer. But no SPL sweeps, no waterfalls, measurements, none of that. Somehow we still managed and enjoyed the results. Who had the ability to obsess about a 1/8 octive 10dB null at 74Hz?

Fast forward to now. DSP now allows us to tweak to a degree previously unimaginable. Pefection seems theoreticaly attainable, though perhaps always just out of reach. Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can? I'm finding myself increasingly drawn into the DSP rabbit hole (I refer to 2ch, HT/video is another matter). This distrubs me, cause I think my system already sounds damn good. The perfect has become the enemy of the good. God save us all. :facepalm:
[/rant]
 
I fully agree, it is indeed frustrating to keep chasing 'perfectionism' - although I guess we will never reach it
I manage this kind of 'stress' by considering it as a journey - what matters is the journey itself and not if we reach our destination or not

Also it makes me really happy that we can now achieve things that were unimaginable just a few years ago in a home environment
 
The „hobby“ is ripe ground for OCD tendencies, yeah, and in my experience REW and DSP add another layer to the number of concerns one can have irt to one’s system. What helped me personally is internalising the fact that perfect speakers simply don’t exist, each stereo pair in the world represents a set of compromises. Makes living with the ones one made him/herself in their setup much easier
 
Some people just listen to the pops and clicks of their LPs and are happy. Any problem is above the neck no matter what system they have.
 
This phenomenon has little to do with just DSP. The thing is that most forum members apply actual tangible knowledge to improve their systems. Using DSP is just a small part of the complete picture.

I don’t think it is any more or less neurotic that Jon Snowing through Audiophelia. It’s just a hell lot more efficient :)
 
I've had the feeling for some time now that people needless obsess over this stuff, trying to "fix" graphs that probably sound just fine. I'll never forget an epic post from a fellow over at AV Nirvana, "I’ve had the feeling that my overzealous EQ attempts fixed the graphs but killed the sound."

Regardsd,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Maybe... but I think more commonly the front end of DSP (room measurement), is highly beneficial and lets you analyze what is actually happening in a system. An endless parade of new hifi may or may not yield improvements in measurable response. I also look back with fondness to the joy of listening to some of my first systems, but I'm also glad to not be a consumer sheep led to the slaughter and today I'm armed with measurements.
 
If you follow Dr. Toole on these threads you will see that he is frustrated that his work, specifically the "Harmon Curve", is being used to in his opinion to "sell snake oil". Here is an example https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...s-your-favorite-house-curve.2382/post-1970907

After struggling for years to accurately measure and DSP some DIY speakers I just bought some high performance monitors that are measured to be flat with good directivity and off access performance and just put them in the room and they sound great. I started with some DSP but found "listening through the room" to be preferred.... also a lot easier.
 
Just don't kid yourself that you are close to perfection, and consider DSP some improvement that can make you happy. You don't have to go down the rabbit hole to apply it to whatever degree works for.
 
Reasonable effort coupled with reasonable expectations is fine territory for DSP. But it really isn't necessary. We all get to decide where our needs and wants lie.

Personally I find the pursuit of audio perfection exhausting, moreso as I age. As a younger person it was a lot of fun. Now as I age I just want to enjoy what time I have left and worrying about what isn't quite right in audio reproduction has slipped way down my priority list.
 
klettermann said:
[rant]
As I remember my days as a college student, there was always some rich kid with a fabulous stereo. It would be a pair of AR 2a's, maybe a Phase Linear amp, a Dynaco preamp (or maybe Pioneer receiver). You get the idea. Speakers went wherever they fit in a dorm cubicle room, not a thought about acoustics or much else. We all thought it sounded fabulous! Fast forward a few years later as we advanced to fancier stuff. McIntosh! KEF! Maybe Magneplaners for the oddballs. Still, little thought about acoustics except to do the best you could. If you were fancy maybe some kind of equalizer. But no SPL sweeps, no waterfalls, measurements, none of that. Somehow we still managed and enjoyed the results. Who had the ability to obsess about a 1/8 octive 10dB null at 74Hz?

Fast forward to now. DSP now allows us to tweak to a degree previously unimaginable. Pefection seems theoreticaly attainable, though perhaps always just out of reach. Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can? I'm finding myself increasingly drawn into the DSP rabbit hole (I refer to 2ch, HT/video is another matter). This distrubs me, cause I think my system already sounds damn good. The perfect has become the enemy of the good. God save us all. :facepalm:
[/rant]
Click to expand...
First, one of my two local record shops (aren't I lucky :D ) has an old pair of AR2ax's (UK made with oatmeal coloured grilles and a slight detailing around the front edges) but no idea if they work or not (they probably need re-capping and definitely re-foaming). I really liked them when new but the mid and high controls on th eback needed a tweak from 'normal' I remember ;)

As for DSP, I'd always suggest trying one's best to get a speaker/room interface as good as possible with NO eq (I repeat, if possible) and then use eq however derived, to fine tune what's there...
 
Reposting something I wrote elsewhere:

We all start with a love of music. As we enjoy the music, we experience something unattainable: a better setup. This could be going to someone’s home, going to an audio salon/stoee, hearing a live concert, or going to a well calibrated cinema.

Now we start our path to upgrades. This is our hobby, right? We read reviews, research products and read about a mix of affordable and unaffordable gear.

With each incremental upgrade, we get a dopamine hit, we get a bit of sighted bias, etc. Sometimes the incremental upgrade is real, like speakers and subwoofers.

Now we start to learn the science. It’s exciting because you no longer need to rely on subjective reviews or traveling to stores or even in home trials. Better yet, in the grand scheme of things getting high SINAD gear isn’t expensive.

There is a branching point now, with three options. Some people migrate between paths.

1) Audio Nirvana
Armed with your knowledge of science, you pick up a great AVR with some sort of room correction, reasonable DAC and amplifier performance, along with passive speakers that are neutral and look attractive. Using REW, you verify speaker positions, do some tweaking and you are done. You have reached your end game. You are happy.

2) Gear Acquisition Syndrome
Armed with your knowledge of science, you seek the very best. It’s your hobby after all, so you start to go down the route of DACs with increasingly higher SINAD and voltage and amplifiers with decreasing gain and increasingly higher SINAD. Never mind that you have gone from the simplicity of a remote and full HDMI CEC integration for movies, music and anything you want, but you now have dedicated steamers, DACs, preamps and amplifiers.

Of course, your enjoyment has issues like needing to power each individual component since 12V triggers may not readily be available, and in the focus on SINAD, it is easy to forget the focus on ergonomics and usability. Think about how many people have complained about the IR remote on a Topping DAC. Think about how many people still bought a Topping DAC in the last 5 years…

This is the neuroticism that OP mentions.

3) Enlightenment
The person in audio nirvana may still have the belief that this is the very best setup for their budget. He or she may not have gear acquisition syndrome, but there will still be curiosity of other gear.

Enlightenment comes when you come back to enjoying music and movies. You hear your favorite song on the radio while driving or someone in the park playing it with a portable speaker.

You hear a 22 db SINAD 300b SET and enjoy the music or pick up an active studio monitor and enjoy the heck out of it, know that it has a simple chip amp with a lot of DSP.

You realize that gear is great but it’s the content that brings joy.

At this point, you stop caring about the SINAD. You get the biggest and best speakers you can and are satisfied with what you already own, knowing that chasing higher performance is pointless since it no longer affects your enjoyment of the music and the gear.

This is the true end game. Not a set of electronics but a state of mind. It often does include nice electronics.
 
klettermann said:
Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can?
Click to expand...
I'd much rather be tweaking these kinds of things than some nonsense that doesn't actually do anything. Plus it's made my office setup a good bit better.

Yes, you can screw things up if you do it wrong, especially >1 kHz.
 
I think what we'll end up with is not perfection but rather soulless homogeneity. It will be very, very good in quality -- but more or less bereft of character. :(

PS There's a pair of AR2ax in the basement even as I type this. ;)
 
GXAlan said:
You realize that gear is great but it’s the content that brings joy.
Click to expand...

Now if I could only convince my partner that it sounds a little better over Airplay than blasted full volume on her phone speakers I'd agree.
 
klettermann said:
Fast forward to now. DSP now allows us to tweak to a degree previously unimaginable. Pefection seems theoreticaly attainable, though perhaps always just out of reach. Is this creating a new cohort of audio neurotics?
Click to expand...
Very true - Yes, DSP is encouraging poor basic speaker design and construction. As long as the drivers between them are capable of producing the entire range of frequencies needed for music, cheap speaker builders can cut their design and R&D budget and leave us relying on DSP to make a poorly-performing speaker appear like a well-designed one! How bad is that?
 
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I grew up with AR-3a! Later on Dahlquist DQ-10s. No DSP, Dynaco, SAE amps, etc. Mindblowing sound. Forward through many speakers and peripherals to my IRS Beta.

I have heard systems with full on DSP that sound great, good and mediocre. Owners who swear by the greatness of the sound (and I'm glad they sound great to to them) when some don't sound that good to me. We all prefer a certain flavor.

On my main system I have an option to run DSP which is great (to my ears) for older rock recordings but seems to take away enjoyment from other types of music.

I agree with @Hear Here that there's a bunch of mediocre speakers out there that only become listenable after DSP. Kind of like the modern warbirds requiring computers to maintain the ability to fly.

I prefer a well designed and developed speaker and then use DSP to fine tune.
 
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