Help needed with sound system setup: windows as DSP (dirac), 2.1, is external audio interface needed?

[Jensu]

Hello everyone, my first post here. I'm unfamiliar with some of the terms, so sorry in advance if they're used incorrectly



I'm building a sound system, multiple sources, one set of speakers.
Use cases are music and movies, sources bluetooth and Windows pc for now. Maybe keyboard/ electric piano in the future.

The idea I had was to have a windows pc as a DSP processor (Dirac). I already have the pc, Dirac software/license, amplifier, speakers and sub. I understand this would all be simple using MiniDSP to process the sound but I already have Dirac full suite license for Windows and would like to use that and not get a new license for the MiniDSP.

Previously as a 2.0 setup this worked without an external audio interface. When I bought a sub and connected it to amplifier's sub-out, windows still recognized the setup as only 2.0. (Amp is connected via USB to Windows, sub to amp through line-out).

So now the problem is I can't get Dirac to correct the bass. Tried voicemeeter banana to create a virtual 2.1 setup but couldn't get the system recognized as 2.1. Concluded that I need an external audio interface/soundcard.

My question is, can I use Motu Ultralite mk 4 to forward the unprocessed sound to Dirac and pass it back processed to the speakers? Something like this:

And if that doesn't work, could I just use the Windows pc as a sort of blueatooth speaker, something like this?

Or if there is an easier/cheaper way or other possibilities, any info is gratefully accepted Thanks!


Parts I have:
Amplifier: SMSL A300
Speakers and sub, diy 2.1 setup (haven't made them myself though)
DSP: Windows PC, old Asus Deskmini 110, has wifi and bluetooth. Already have Dirac full suite license for Windows.

Parts I'm considering:
Motu Ultralite mk 4, could get this for 250€ used
or
MiniDSP 2x4 HD 269€ new

Considering the Motu instead of MiniDSP as I might upgrade to 5.1 or 7.1 at some point, would be more future proof.

 

[ppataki]

Here is what you can do (this is what I do too)

- Use your Windows PC as the source, run Jriver as the audio/video player
- Use a multichannel DAC (like the mk4 or mk5 or 4i4 4th Gen. or Topping DM7, etc etc)
- Connect the two front channels to channel 1 and 2, connect the sub to channel 3
- Jriver's DSP will allow you to configure the crossover, volume, delay, etc. for all your channels separately (based on REW measurements for example)
- You can even have 3rd party VST plugins in Jriver (for example if you want linear phase crossover)
- Once this is done you use the Dirac VST plugin so it will see your system as 2.0 (since the sub will already be integrated) and you optimize your system with it
- You are done

(btw. you can have as many subs as you wish integrated like this and still no need for multichannel Dirac license or DLBC)

 

[Keith_W]

My question is, can I use Motu Ultralite mk 4 to forward the unprocessed sound to Dirac and pass it back processed to the speakers? Something like this:
View attachment 405381

In theory the answer should be "yes". However, there is a potential point of failure. If you use Dirac, you must use Dirac's proprietary convolver since it does not output industry standard .WAV files. Is Dirac's convolver able to take the source from your interface, process it, and send it back? This is a very basic function, and this is something you should check right now.

(EDIT) I just saw @ppataki reply. It looks as if Dirac has a VST that you can insert into your processing pipeline. In this case, it should work.

And if that doesn't work, could I just use the Windows pc as a sort of blueatooth speaker, something like this?
View attachment 405382

Again, in theory the answer is "yes". I am going to leave out the discussion on why I think Bluetooth is miserable (dropouts, limited range, funny glitches, etc).

In this case, you will need to know about how Windows routes sound. In a nutshell, there are 3 modes:

- WASAPI Shared. Standard Windows sound. All sounds go through the Windows mixer, meaning your audio will be resampled. Worse, notification bleeps and all sorts of other strange sounds get sent to your speakers. AVOID!
- WASAPI Exclusive. Only one program, and only one device is allowed. This is a problem if you want to take sound from one device (Bluetooth input) and send it to another device (Motu).
- ASIO. This is a third party standard and used in pro audio and is the recommended standard for audio use. It has the same limitations as WASAPI Exclusive, but it is even lower latency. The Dirac convolver likely supports ASIO, but this again means that you will have difficulty taking sound from one device and sending it to another.

There is a way around this limitation of "one device, one program" for ASIO and WASAPI Exclusive. You can use VB Audio Matrix.

Considering the Motu instead of MiniDSP as I might upgrade to 5.1 or 7.1 at some point, would be more future proof.

Going the Motu route is vastly superior and far more flexible than going with a MiniDSP, however it does have important caveats. As my post shows, figuring out how to connect everything together is not easy because you will need to learn more about Windows sound than you would want to. The solution is also not as robust as a MiniDSP, it is only as stable as your Windows PC is stable. Bad Windows updates or driver updates can break things. A MiniDSP is a simple machine, if it has the inputs that you need, you are done. No need to futz around with multiple pieces of complicated software (you will need at minimum - mixer software, DSP filter design software, and a convolver) and worry about whether it will work together.

However, going with the Motu has a lot of advantages. You do not need to use Dirac, which has its own annoying limitations. You can have as many DAC channels as you like - if you go with Dante, Ravenna, or AVB, you can have literally dozens of DAC channels if you are insane enough to spend the money.

I am however, very conservative. I only recommend what I know works, and I can tell you for sure that an RME will work for what you are proposing. But then, I don't see any reason why a Motu shouldn't work. Perhaps someone else who has tested it personally can vouch for Motu, but I am not going to vouch for it since I haven't tested it.

 

[Jensu]

Thanks a lot the the comprehensive replies!

I have a few things that I probably didn't understand fully.
@ppataki : From what you said, I understood that you do most corrections for the sub and speakers through Jriver DSP. Could I just let Dirac do all that? Set the system to show as 2.1? (I think Motu software can also set crossover.) Haven't used Jriver, is it simple or fast to learn to use? I'm looking for the most simple solution but will learn more as needed.
Also, I sometimes play games through steam; if DSP is (partly) done through Jriver, could the sounds from the games be processed through Jriver also?

@Keith_W : Thanks for all the info. Would you consider VB Audio Matrix easy to learn? The interface looks moderately intimidating.
"you will need to learn more about Windows sound than you would want to." This is very much correct. I'm starting to regret my hubris in thinking this would be simple and that miniDSP is too limited.

 

[ppataki]

you do most corrections for the sub and speakers through Jriver DSP.

In fact, not just most but all I have a 4.1 (soon 4.2) system and literally all DSP is done in Jriver

Could I just let Dirac do all that?

Yes you can but for that you will need to buy DLBC (Dirac Live Bass Correction)

simple or fast to learn to use?

Not really, there is a considerable learning curve to be honest

ould the sounds from the games be processed through Jriver also?

Yes it can, there is a feature in Jriver called WDM driver - it will create a virtual audio output device in Windows; so all Windows sounds (games, Tidal, Chrome, etc.) will be routed through Jriver's DSP engine

 

[Keith_W]

I would say that JRiver is moderately easy to use. But then I have been using JRiver for about 15 years, and I still haven't figured out all of its features! It leaves Roon in the dust when it comes to features, and it is much cheaper. However, Roon has a few features that are missing in JRiver, and these are very important:

1. No streaming integration. You need third party apps for that, and these aren't as elegant as Roon's solution.
2. Network indexing isn't as seamless as Roon.

There are other features that Roon has, e.g. it has a prettier interface, it has music discovery, artist profiles, and lyrics. I don't consider any of those necessary, but it is nice to have and I wouldn't complain if it came to JRiver.

FYI, Foobar can do most of what JRiver does (but it lacks all of JRiver's video features) and it's free. The caveat is that Foobar is very limited without plugins. Fortunately, there are dozens of free Foobar plugins. You just have to find what you need.

Is VB Matrix easy to learn? I would say that it is, given that I managed to figure out how to use it without a manual. But then I am already somewhat familiar with mixer software, so VB-Matrix was a cinch.

 

[Jensu]

Thanks for the replies! Now I have everything needed to work forward with this.