Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

[YSC]

right, so above 1,5kHz KH150 tweeter is even better than s360s compression driver, what a bargain

could be, but realistically, you want to use the speaker drawing the horizontal line at the max bass /treble distortion (whichever lower ) you could accept and use that as the max level you could use it to not causing the music to distort above the SPL, KH150 is very capable but then in reality, the S360 in bigger rooms might make more sense

 

[changer]

right, so above 1,5kHz KH150 tweeter is even better than s360s compression driver, what a bargain

this could be a misconception: all compression drivers, by virtue of their compression chamber construction, have prominent H2 distortion, which however is widely held to be inaudible. This is why the smaller KH150's dome tweeter in the S&R graphic appears to be superior. Then again, the Neumann tweeter as well as the Genelec compression driver appears to mostly produce H2 distortion.

 

[RobL]

That Neumann tweeter is pretty robust…same tweeter on KH420 isn’t it?

 

[Curvature]

this could be a misconception: all compression drivers, by virtue of their compression chamber construction, have prominent H2 distortion, which however is widely held to be inaudible. This is why the smaller KH150's dome tweeter in the S&R graphic appears to be superior. Then again, the Neumann tweeter as well as the Genelec compression driver appears to mostly produce H2 distortion.

It's the same output level at 3% and 10% distortion. So the max is accurate.

 

[Rahan]

The compression driver on the s360 is so much fun compare to the neumann

 

[dfuller]

That Neumann tweeter is pretty robust…same tweeter on KH420 isn’t it?

Yep, same one. But tweeters are never where I'm expecting to run out of headroom first on active speakers. It's always the LF.

 

[holdingpants01]

this could be a misconception: all compression drivers, by virtue of their compression chamber construction, have prominent H2 distortion, which however is widely held to be inaudible. This is why the smaller KH150's dome tweeter in the S&R graphic appears to be superior. Then again, the Neumann tweeter as well as the Genelec compression driver appears to mostly produce H2 distortion.

Comparing distortion measurements at 96dB that's just not true if I read them right. S360 compression driver have both 2nd harmonic and 3rd apparent in measurements, it's the KH150s tweeter shows only second harmonic, lower in level at the same time. Only s360 was measured at 106dB, but it doesn't look happy at this level anyway. It's not like by definition any compression driver is better than any tweeter.

 

[changer]

Where did I say that? I started typing the post under the assumption that S360 tweeter distortion is mostly H2, which it is, and it was discussed many times before, when compression drivers are involved, that their H2 distortion is not perceived as such. I only then saw the distortion of the Neumann tweeter is also H2, which is untypical for many domes.

 

[holdingpants01]

Where did I say that? I started typing the post under the assumption that S360 tweeter distortion is mostly H2, which it is, and it was discussed many times before, when compression drivers are involved, that their H2 distortion is not perceived as such. I only then saw the distortion of the Neumann tweeter is also H2, which is untypical for many domes.

Right, it's just a better HF transducer. Which is the whole point I even mentioned KH150 here, as someone asked of a similar well performing studio monitor speaker but at lower price and I suggested Neumanns, which performs even better in some aspects while costing less than half of the S360. And I'm saying this as a fan and heavy user of Genelecs (though not S360)

 

[holdingpants01]

Yep, same one. But tweeters are never where I'm expecting to run out of headroom first on active speakers. It's always the LF.

I don't want to be that guy, but even here in the original post there's a 8361 measurement that shows tweeter limiting at 106dB, not LF, I know I know, another oddball...

 

[Eetu]

On average, there's ~30dB less energy in treble than bass in music so tweeters are rarely the limiting factor when it comes to SPL.

 

[holdingpants01]

On average, there's ~30dB less energy in treble than bass in music so tweeters are rarely the limiting factor when it comes to SPL.
View attachment 311341

My issue with this graph is that it's just average level measured throughout the whole song. Transients and sibilants can reach high peak level, but they don't register as high average level

 

[Eetu]

My issue with this graph is that it's just average level measured throughout the whole song. Peaks like sibilants and transients reach high levels short term, but they don't register as high average level

That's true, but then again the THD tests are sweeps, transients probably do better there as well. Compared to bass lines, organs, pads, drone sounds which need more long-term SPL capacity.

Mainly I'm a bit sceptical that the tweeters' SPL would be a major deciding factor *in actual use* between the 8361/KH150/S360 over factors like max SPL in bass, point-source (or not), dispersion width, price and so on.. But I guess never underestimate people who like to really blast it

 

[holdingpants01]

That's true, but then again the THD tests are sweeps, transients probably do better there as well. Compared to bass lines, organs, pads, drone sounds which need more long-term SPL capacity.

Mainly I'm a bit sceptical that the tweeters' SPL would be a major deciding factor *in actual use* between the 8361/KH150/S360 over factors like max SPL in bass, point-source (or not), dispersion width, price and so on.. But I guess never underestimate people who like to really blast it

Agree, though I'm spoiled by a big 14" high bass/low midrange driver in a 5 way design, so based on the aesthetics and assuming it handles low mids at least partially the way my system does, I would still probably go with S360 myself if the budget allows, or KH310/KH150 as a lower cost option with a sub or two in the future

 

[Pekka Perämoottori]

May be some treble driver power handling -safety margin issue.

Genelec has protective limiter properly set, to guarantee durability and long lifespan of the driver. Session after session, decades to come. Immune to abusive user actions.

Neumann lets its treble to run probably on very thin safety margin i.e. dangerously hot. This would likely at some point fry it up, if tortured this way (sweeps on max-SPL- level) frequently. Commits a long (or not so long) term thermal suicide, that is. "Live fast, die young"; like russian nuclear submarine / mega-overclocker tuner lads PC´s.

 

[holdingpants01]

May be some treble driver power handling -safety margin issue.

Genelec has protective limiter properly set, to guarantee durability and long lifespan of the driver. Session after session, decades to come. Immune to abusive user actions.

Neumann lets its treble to run probably on very thin safety margin i.e. dangerously hot. This would likely at some point fry it up, if tortured this way (sweeps on max-SPL- level) frequently. Commits a long (or not so long) term thermal suicide, that is. "Live fast, die young"; like russian nuclear submarine / mega-overclocker tuner lads PC´s.

this is just speculation, KH150 were not tested at 106dB but KH420 with the same tweeter were and indeed there was limiting going on (yet still safely below 1% THD), there's no reason for Neumann to design KH150 differently. No limiting on S360 at 106dB with 4% THD, so it's actually the other way around if anything, anyway, suggesting that Neumann/Klein Hummel engineers are less experienced or ruthless is rather funny

 

[RobL]

this is just speculation, KH150 were not tested at 106dB but KH420 with the same tweeter were and indeed there was limiting going on (yet still safely below 1% THD), there's no reason for Neumann to design KH150 differently. No limiting on S360 at 106dB with 4% THD, so it's actually the other way around if anything, anyway, suggesting that Neumann/Klein Hummel engineers are less experienced or ruthless is rather funny

View attachment 311364

The compression driver in the S360 will be considerably more efficient than the Neumann dome tweeter. Meaning it will require much less power to achieve the same spl, so much less wasted power (heat) to dissipate. Just the same, I’m sure Neumann’s engineers aren’t slapdash about protection.

 

[Sancus]

My issue with this graph is that it's just average level measured throughout the whole song. Transients and sibilants can reach high peak level, but they don't register as high average level

Do you have some evidence that would indicate the transients and sibilants would not follow similar trends? It doesn't make any sense that they would be different.

In general the reason this graph is the way it is is because humans can tolerate far, far louder sounds at lower frequencies. A song with perceptually louder peaks above 1khz than below 1khz would be extremely unpleasant to listen to.

It's easy to see when my Genelecs limit and I can tell you they have never, ever, not even once, ever limited due to loud high frequency sounds. The only cases the limiter has ever turned on were due to obvious and extreme bass output.

The engineers who build these speakers know all these things and there's a reason they don't go out of their way to give the tweeter tons of headroom. There's just no point.

 

[ernestcarl]

the reason it looks like it, is because it's measured the way it is. Low frequency content is generally more constant and fundamental content of notes are mostly where the graphs shows the biggest average level. All the drum transients, sibilants and attack part of most instruments live way higher than 1kHz, but don't create high average level because they are what they are, short transients

The log sweep might activate the limiter pretty early, but with actual music with those peaks it might not. Maybe try recording RTA from the MLP and compare the peak curves at med and very high volume levels if there is any compression.

 

[holdingpants01]

Do you have some evidence that would indicate the transients and sibilants would not follow similar trends? It doesn't make any sense that they would be different.

Just my experience as a sound engineer. The slope is way less extreme when you measure maximum peak level instead of average, just because the higher frequency peaks are shorter and won't create high average level. Here's a peak content of a fairly typical rock song (uploaded again without the sloping tilt). There's maybe 10dB difference between 58Hz which is fundamental frequency of a kick drum and 15kHz which is probably cymbals and snare content