End Game Stereo

[sigbergaudio]

Are you looking for subs mainly for music, mainly for movies, or a combination?

 

[kipman725]

Here is another option.
Though i find it hard to figure the spl specs on the kh 420s. Will the subs be totally overkill?

KH 420 + DIM 1

KH 420 + DIM 1 - - Midfield Monitor,Up to 11 m (33 ft),Down to 26 Hz,Down to 34 Hz,Down to 52 Hz,Down to 57 Hz,Digital + Analog Input,Professional Recording Studio,Delay,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft) - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

+

2x

XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - Sort THX, 2700 watt - Audio Import AS

XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - that’s true cinema! XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - that’s true cinema! har flere ganger vist at de kan subwoofere,...

www.surround.no

The xtz sub results look good just be aware that you are paying a premium for the 3*12 configuration that could be matched by a single 18" . When going to a larger driver the piston area is proportional to the square of the diameter and also there is more space for things like larger spiders which allow larger excursion. So even a jump from 10" to 12" is highly advantageous.

If your running multi subs with each having a DSP+AMP channel you can also use multi sub optimizer:

Multi-Sub Optimizer Freeware for Multiple Subwoofers

Optimize bass performance of multiple-subwoofer audio systems. Reduce seat-to-seat frequency response variations.

www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Are you looking for subs mainly for music, mainly for movies, or a combination?

Only music.
For movies i have another system.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Maybe i should specify why i think its a good idea to go for satelites/monitors + 2-4 subs.

1) pro audio i believe is truer to sq vs price then fancy consumer electronics

2) most midfield monitors for less then 50k dollars require a sub

3) the waf factor. Setting up the subs in corners/by a wall is waf. Pulling out the monitors to perfect position is easier with a small box. Planning on running 2 dsp/eq modes - waf mode all speakers away at the back wall. And then critical listening mode. Hopefully leaving the heavy subs by the wall bounderies…

 

[sigbergaudio]

Maybe i should specify why i think its a good idea to go for satelites/monitors + 2-4 subs.

1) pro audio i believe is truer to sq vs price then fancy consumer electronics

2) most midfield monitors for less then 50k dollars require a sub

3) the waf factor. Setting up the subs in corners/by a wall is waf. Pulling out the monitors to perfect position is easier with a small box. Planning on running 2 dsp/eq modes - waf mode all speakers away at the back wall. And then critical listening mode. Hopefully leaving the heavy subs by the wall bounderies…

1. This can be both false and true depending on what you buy I think. Good studio monitors are expensive as well. And of course pro audio typically have a design that may not look at home in a living room.

I obviously agree subwoofers is the way to go. But if it's mainly for music I don't think you need extremely powerful subs (people here are talking about 15" or 18" subwoofers), and two subwoofers will probably take you quite far.

Your SPL requirements (both in monitors and subwoofers) also depends on the size of the space and how loud you typically play as well. 4x7m isn't very large.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Welcome to ASR.
I used to be very clean cut on consumer vs Pro subwoofer. Not anymore. Some Pro brands seem to be very serious about their specs and if anything, tend to understate the capabilities of their products. I can safely name Genelec and Neuman, they are at this point in time among the best reviewed and seem to be consistently providing best of kind performances. I could safely say that in term of performance, most of the best tested here seem to be Neuman and Genelec ... The KH 120 (or is it the KH80 DSP?), being among top 5.
From what I know and understand, Neuman speakers are not DSP controlled for the most part, save for the KH 120 DSP (are there others?). Their performance however remains at the top of the list, regardless... but, and this is where I think it becomes interesting, the addition of some of their subs does bring DSP to the speaker system so assembled. The KH750 is DSP and with the help of the Neuman MA-1 accessory ( a microphone and software?) you can integrate a speaker system in your room or studio, Neumann equivalent of Genelec's GLM...
Setting up multiple subwoofers can be done, heck! I have done it ... but it is not easy, takes time and can be very, very frustrating. The MA-1 and DSP from the subwoofers could make the setup much easier and less frustrating and ... I have no doubt the subwoofers from Neuman are capable, likely on a par or better than many consumer subwoofers. They should not be seen as simple subwoofing boxes like most consumer subwoofers which are in fact driver with an amplifier. those Neumann Pro subs are control-centers, for a subwoofer plus satellite system plus a subwoofing box. They are not overpriced and overmatched subwoofers.. My take.

I wouldn't mind such a system for my endgame stereo: KH 420 + KH 750 DSP x 2 ...

Peace

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Thank you FrantzM.
What an informative contribution.
Yes. Pro monitors are costly for sure. As is anything of certain standards.

Looks like with the 8361 genelecs and maybe the KH420s subs would not be a must for music reading your input here in ASF.

Though comments like the Amirs that the 8361 cast a «smaller stage» then his Revels kinda pust me of. I can handle «small speakers», but if it means «small, but linear sound» then I’d rather go for bigger less «correct sound» if that makes sense.

After all its about emotions. I need to be able to listen @ whisper levels with a glass of whisky in front of my fire place, but also listen to a rock concert with the kickdrum at realistic levels without the soundstage falling apart…

Once again i remain impressed by the level of entusiasm, knowledge and thought through advice from you members.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Alright. So the finalists are as following:

1) Genelec 1038s

2) Neuman KH420s with 2-4 subs

3) Dynaudio Core 58s with 2-4 subs

Guess i will have to find a place to test them. Would be fun to do a couple of daytrips to Denmark, Finland and a weekend trip to Berlin. Living in southern Norway all is doable by car.

Any thoughts on the contenders?

I read from the Neuman speaker manual that if you use multiple subs they should me no more then 2m apart. Can anyone explain that Logic to me? Should this then be applicable to full range speakers as well? Makes it kinda hard for mid/farfield listening at around 3-4meters.. they also recommend placing the main monitors no further then 0,8m from the back and side walls.

Guess a «acousics for dummies» would be a good investment..

 

[Piatnik]

Alright. So the finalists are as following:

1) Genelec 1038s

2) Neuman KH420s with 2-4 subs

3) Dynaudio Core 58s with 2-4 subs

Guess i will have to find a place to test them. Would be fun to do a couple of daytrips to Denmark, Finland and a weekend trip to Berlin. Living in southern Norway all is doable by car.

Any thoughts on the contenders?

I read from the Neuman speaker manual that if you use multiple subs they should me no more then 2m apart. Can anyone explain that Logic to me? Should this then be applicable to full range speakers as well? Makes it kinda hard for mid/farfield listening at around 3-4meters.. they also recommend placing the main monitors no further then 0,8m from the back and side walls.

Guess a «acousics for dummies» would be a good investment..

I am in a similar situation, looking to upgrade (or rationalize, or optimize my audio investment). My system is a McIntosh MC462 feeding Wilson’s Sabrina. My room is 4m x 14m, but my setup is in one half of this room, so my sitting/speaker position is in the 4m depth. I recently bought a pair of Benchmark AHB2 to compare them with the MC462, but I can’t conclude which one I should keep. I thought that maybe active speakers could be the path I should follow. That would eliminate the quest for the perfect amplifier and enables easy room correction and easier surround sound.

Before thinking about active speakers, I was thinking about DSP to optimise my room, I really hate diffuser and sound traps that kills the look of a room, IMO. Looking at Active speakers, I see that DSP would come as a bonus and GSM looks just awesome. I also sometimes thinks about adding speakers for surround sound, and potentially a subwoofer, if the monitors are not enough for my taste.

I looked at the KH420 vs 8361A tread on ASR and Genelec seems to have the majority of the votes. Having a similar room than yours, I am curious why you eliminate the 8361 so quickly?

Other people having thoughts about my first world problem are welcome to comment.

 

[Chrispy]

Can't imagine considering a B&W sub at all, nor even JL here in the US outside of automobile applications. How about Arendal? XTZ?

 

[beefkabob]

Alright. So the finalists are as following:

1) Genelec 1038s

2) Neuman KH420s with 2-4 subs

3) Dynaudio Core 58s with 2-4 subs

That's yes, yes, and hell no.
Minidsp is going to do the job cheaper with multiple subs.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

That's yes, yes, and hell no.
Minidsp is going to do the job cheaper with multiple subs.

Ok, hell no to Dynaudio??? any reason?

Planning Minidsp studio just to get a reliable streaming box which i might use to do anoterh test/dsp after the built in dsp's has done their jobs. Not quite shure i understood what you said about minidsp as Neumann and Genelecs built in dsp's can handle multiple subs...

And no, I have not excluded the Genelecs - 8351 or 8361's both with subs.

Another resent competitor offfering a nice package is the Adam SV3 with two of Adam Audios own 2 sub15's.

And to the q's about using other sub brands then the speakers - the only reason why i want to stick with one brand is to make the setup easier (room correction). This might be a stupid thought though as the minidsp studio might do the same trick - AND I could save a lot of money on getting used subs from known non-pro-audio brands. Eg. B&W, REL, JL+++

 

[Thomas_A]

Alright. So the finalists are as following:

1) Genelec 1038s

2) Neuman KH420s with 2-4 subs

3) Dynaudio Core 58s with 2-4 subs

Guess i will have to find a place to test them. Would be fun to do a couple of daytrips to Denmark, Finland and a weekend trip to Berlin. Living in southern Norway all is doable by car.

Any thoughts on the contenders?

I read from the Neuman speaker manual that if you use multiple subs they should me no more then 2m apart. Can anyone explain that Logic to me? Should this then be applicable to full range speakers as well? Makes it kinda hard for mid/farfield listening at around 3-4meters.. they also recommend placing the main monitors no further then 0,8m from the back and side walls.

Guess a «acousics for dummies» would be a good investment..

With this budget you might also pay a visit to Ino Audio in Stockholm to have a listen.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Ino Audio in Stockholm

Thanks for the great advice. Where can I find these guys? must say its rare these days not to find any info about them on the internet. Do they have a web page? I find the Ino-Lab Audio educational page, though nothing about their speakers exept from used listings and interviews with people owning them...

 

[beefkabob]

Ok, hell no to Dynaudio??? any reason?

Planning Minidsp studio just to get a reliable streaming box which i might use to do anoterh test/dsp after the built in dsp's has done their jobs. Not quite shure i understood what you said about minidsp as Neumann and Genelecs built in dsp's can handle multiple subs...

And no, I have not excluded the Genelecs - 8351 or 8361's both with subs.

Another resent competitor offfering a nice package is the Adam SV3 with two of Adam Audios own 2 sub15's.

And to the q's about using other sub brands then the speakers - the only reason why i want to stick with one brand is to make the setup easier (room correction). This might be a stupid thought though as the minidsp studio might do the same trick - AND I could save a lot of money on getting used subs from known non-pro-audio brands. Eg. B&W, REL, JL+++

Dynaudio doesn't measure great, and it's poor for the money. Check the spinoramas.

Minidsp offers dirac, which is wonderful and easy to use. Manually doing DSP is a PITA.

The pro audio companies tend to make overpriced subs., I'd except Adam is among those who do so.

Because subs cost so much to ship, the US and EU markets have different price leaders. Check out the CEA-2010 measurements and compare. Whichever is best is best. Then you can use minidsp or another preferably external DSP solution to clean up the frequency response. 2-4 big but not huge subs is probably the way to go. I like ported. I don't see any issues with ports. But some people say that group delay is an issue. I've not had any issues with it that I've noticed. Ported subs get way lower and louder where it counts, dollar per dollar.

 

[Thomas_A]

Thanks for the great advice. Where can I find these guys? must say its rare these days not to find any info about them on the internet. Do they have a web page? I find the Ino-Lab Audio educational page, though nothing about their speakers exept from used listings and interviews with people owning them...

You have to give Ingvar Öhman a call. Mind that, there is usually a quite long waiting time for his speakers. But if you are in search for speakers in that price range with subs and if you are planning to travel around a bit for sessions, I might be a good idea to pay a visit.

I can PM you a telephone no. and som info.

 

[Jim Matthews]

If you are considering these excellent products, your budget allows broad choices. I followed a similar path, with Open baffle designs just prior to my current (and very satisfying) rig.

If you are still young, I would recommend loudspeakers that keep the amplification in a separate chassis, as the development of suitable electronics outpaces hardware.

Smaller main speakers coupled with larger (and wider bandwidth) subs worked best for me.

Home demonstration is a requirement, even if you must pay a "restocking" fee.

JBL Professional M2

M2 Master Reference Monitor Addressing the growing need for high dynamic range and reference-mon...

jblpro.com

****

As an older music lover, I'm soon to move house into a smaller space and chose accordingly. The JBL 708p competes with the monitors mentioned above and is small enough to move without assistance.

I would caution anyone at this juncture to prepare for some disappointment, you may feel a loss of desire when you build out a truly excellent playback array - when you realize few improvements remain available. It's oddly deflating.

 

[beefkabob]

While I have never owned a Ferrari, I don't find the fact that I've owned BMWs to be deflating. There's always a bigger fish, and down that pathway lies madness. People spent hundreds of thousands and more on stereos that are problematic at best and no match for a pair of 708P and a sub or two.

 

[nstzya]

The way I address this problem is to live in the past. I am on about a decade delay. I buy what was state of the art 10 years ago and for which everyone paid nosebleed prices then and I get for pennies. As they say, Ignorance is Bliss. Sounds damn nice to my ignorant ears. And no buyer’s remorse. And if there is, I just resell - sometimes at a profit because I’m patient about buying at a good price.

Not sure this is OT or not. Don’t feel it is. Because sometimes the best advice is to just to do nothing. Those Forsman D2’s look pretty nice. What’s your plans for them? ;-)

 

[FrantzM]

While I have never owned a Ferrari, I don't find the fact that I've owned BMWs to be deflating. There's always a bigger fish, and down that pathway lies madness. People spent hundreds of thousands and more on stereos that are problematic at best and no match for a pair of 708P and a sub or two.

+ 1000
Similar experience
I dreamt of a Mercedes G-Wagon and acquired one one... A POS, and I am generous. The Lexus G460 run circles around it in everything that matters and is reliable, notice I didn't say: " is more". The notion of "reliability" is alien to the Mercedes G-Wagon.
I have owned expensive audio systems. The best I have had is the one I currently enjoy: AVR X-3400 used a Pre/Pro driving JBL LSR308 and a miniDSP-2x4 to control a pair of Dayton SUB-1500 subwoofers. I have thus, become very hesitant to spend more for suspect to little gains. The 708 however, and better subwoofers are tempting me.

I would however continue to suggest to the OP, what I had in my earlier post:
KH 420 + KH 750 DSP x 2.

and now with a bit of distance:

JBL 708 P + miniDSP 2x4 HD + 2 SVS 3000 ... Much more work to get them to integrate, you won't have he Neuman MA-1 to "just" do things. You will have to work a lot to get the system well integrated, but same level of performance for much less money... if you're in the USA.

Peace.