End Game Stereo

[MikeFromNorway]

Hello guys.

This is my first post so please be patient with me.
First of all. Thank you all for such a fantastic source, full of quality, reliable information. Must say, wow! Been following you for more then 5 years, very impressed.

I've been in the hifi-hobby game since 1994. Got my first Klispch KG 4.2, since upgradet with Bob Crites parts and now moved them to my home cinema setup. Changed to Klipsch Heresy, then a big step up to Forsman D2-8 (dipols). Then a step back again to Klipsch Corwnall v3. And now finally my reference the Forsman D2-10s for the last 3 years. Added DSP through Sonarworks Reference and must say, for the first time I can see the music, not just imagine it while listening.

The living room is 4x7meters (13x23feet), walls in thick wood. Ceiling in uneven old wood with visible building structure. This makes it less reflective. The room is fairly treated with carpet, lounge matress on the floor, sound absorbing pictures, sofas ++. Decent acoustics for a living room. Speaker placement 4 feet from backwall, 2 feet from sidewalls and sweet spot makes a triangle of about 10x10x10feet. Measures pretty flat from 34-20khz after removing a 100hz +6db bump and another two +4,5db bumps at 1 and around 4khz.

So you got the backround and setup. Now to the question, where your opinions would be welcome. The quest for the right sound is still there. I stumbled upon a thread discussing studio monitors and based on my budget, knowledge and avalability in Norway the following seems like a good combo.

Neumann KH420 + Neumann KH870.

I get the price of the KH420s. But what happened with the KH870? are we paying for the fancy electronics on the back? the possibility to connect a 7.7 (or something like it) setup? I only need stereo. The price of each sub is comparable, at least here in Norway, to any super high end/super high priced sub. Eg. B&W DB1D, JL Fantom 113, SVS ultra, and so on... The flipside is that those "more common" home hifi subs are often available on the used marked in Norway for half the price. For example the JL's (see link). And the output on them is often higher as well.

The question is then, is my listed combo so damn good working together that the total price of the pack will justify the expensive subs? Or would you guys recommend another sub... for the setup?

One example would be going for the Minidsp Studio and controlling 2 subs of a non Neumann brand together with the Neumann KH420s from its Dirac DSP and still spend less money...


ref.
Potential setup:

Summary Table

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

Subwoofer

Veil pris kr. 58’995.- Selger 2 stk av denne, de er kjøpt i mai i år. Har oppgradert i samme merke da disse er de beste jeg har kommet over! Selges halv pris, kr. 29500.- pr stk. En blir Garantert fornøyd med disse!

www.finn.no

KH 870 G

KH 870 - - Up to 11 m (33 ft),Down to 18 Hz,Down to 26 Hz,Down to 34 Hz,Down to 52 Hz,Down to 57 Hz,Domestic Environment,Subwoofer,Professional Recording Studio,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft) - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

KH 420 G

KH 420 - - Midfield Monitor,Up to 11 m (33 ft),Down to 26 Hz,Down to 34 Hz,Down to 52 Hz,Down to 57 Hz,Domestic Environment,Professional Recording Studio,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft) - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

My first speaker:

KG 4.2 Floorstanding Speaker | Klipsch

Home Audio Products for Every Lifestyle, Application & Budget. Since 1946, no compromises in Legendary Sound. Free Shipping on All Online Orders in the US.

www.klipsch.com

My actual speaker:

D2 Series

 

[Matias]

Welcome to ASR. I also wonder why their subs are that much expensive. Hard to justify in my opinion... I would go with one of the others you listed, especially JL used.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Thanks Matias. A part of me says yes, go JL/other known brands cheaper and used eaven cheaper. The scientific part of me says studio grade subs from a no-bullshit brand wich actually measures their gear is the way to go... The JL's are "microscopic" in comparison and they don't release measurements, SPLs and so on... That 13" driver must really work hard when pushed compeared to two 10" drivers in a big, open box... which I interpret as less distortion.

 

[Matias]

In your country there is also @sigbergaudio doing great things, maybe you two can arrange a home demo?

Development thread: High-end dual opposing 10" subwoofer: Sigberg Audio 10D

Some of you may have checked out our Inkognito series, aka "high-end design subwoofer" (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sigberg-audio-building-a-design-subwoofer-that-actually-sounds-good.15677/). We're now looking at building our first "traditional" cube formed...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

We'll happily arrange a demo. We have both subwoofers and speakers that sounds like they could be interesting for you, @MikeFromNorway

And welcome to ASR!

 

[MikeFromNorway]

We'll happily arrange a demo. We have both subwoofers and speakers that sounds like they could be interesting for you, @MikeFromNorway

And welcome to ASR!

Thanks.
That would be great. I was not very impressed at the HiFi show in Horten, but it could have been a lot of things. I will defenitly book a demo.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hifi shows are not ideal to showcase at, even though we did our best given the circumstances.

I would genuinely appreciate a second opportunity to demonstrate our products.

Feel free to contact me via direct message here in the forum, via email or via our chat on the Facebook page.

 

[Drengur]

Hei Mike.

I would most definitely consider using at least two subs as it makes things a lot easier. In most rooms, a couple of "less performing" subs will probably sound better with less tweaking than a single "better" sub. The Harman whitepaper on this might be interesting to you: https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Hei Mike.

I would most definitely consider using at least two subs as it makes things a lot easier. In most rooms, a couple of "less performing" subs will probably sound better with less tweaking than a single "better" sub. The Harman whitepaper on this might be interesting to you: https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

Yes.
The plan was 2 subs from the very beginning

 

[kipman725]

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

loads of subwooofer tests here. You may notice the common theme that DIY designs are much better value for money. Neumann KH870 you could build (or have built localy) multiple more powerful subs which would reduce the spatial variability of bass in the room.

It is worth also taking into account the threshold perception of sound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour#/media/File:Lindos4.svg at 20Hz 80dB is not going to sound very loud and often the distortion products of 'domestic' sub bass systems will be perceived louder than the fundamental. Personaly I would want to hit 120dBc slow avg in the listening position to regard a sub bass system as end game as this would match what I measure at live bass heavy events. This is very dificult to mentain to 20Hz however so I would prioritise 30Hz output. I can't go anywhere near that loud myself due to not living in a detached house in the middle of nowhere but you did specify end game.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

loads of subwooofer tests here. You may notice the common theme that DIY designs are much better value for money. Neumann KH870 you could build (or have built localy) multiple more powerful subs which would reduce the spatial variability of bass in the room.

It is worth also taking into account the threshold perception of sound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour#/media/File:Lindos4.svg at 20Hz 80dB is not going to sound very loud and often the distortion products of 'domestic' sub bass systems will be perceived louder than the fundamental. Personaly I would want to hit 120dBc slow avg in the listening position to regard a sub bass system as end game as this would match what I measure at live bass heavy events. This is very dificult to mentain to 20Hz however so I would prioritise 30Hz output. I can't go anywhere near that loud myself due to not living in a detached house in the middle of nowhere but you did specify end game.

Thanks kipman.
Since you just described my House and where i live i guess i do have to do some Research into data-bass

Though must admit i was hoping to find a quicker fix and higher WAF with 4 of the Neumanns, a mic and a quick calibration.

 

[syzygetic]

I went through this subwoofer debate as well, and I landed on a Genelec (bought used for a good deal) in my office, and a pair of SVS SB3000s for my main system. Honestly, there's almost no beating the "consumer" level stuff out there, it works better at the same price as the studio gear, and often by a wide margin.

The DIY route sounds good until you get into finishes... once you veneer or finish those DIY cabinets to a level matching the mass production stuff, you're often within spitting distance. If you plan to just cover the box in carpet or something, no doubt, the DIY stuff is compelling.

Another thing I didn't do but considered in the DIY space, and which might work for you, is an infinite baffle sub... drivers outside the room, with vents / ports into the room. No clutter, super crazy performance, but obviously not simple.

 

[kipman725]

4 of the neumanns would be very decent, however they won't go loud and deep their specification is:

Bass capability: Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz)

116.7 dB SPL

at 18Hz (their -3dB point) output will be much less.

This article is also worth reading: https://data-bass.com/#/articles/5cb5fb285389a80004c7e58a?_k=zqp63s
while in general output capability is increased in multi sub systems its not the standard +6dB per doubling of the number of subs as would be the case for co-location of the subs.

Unfortunately physics is cruel and subwoofers that can play loud and low are going to be large. The most power dense solution will be high excursion drivers in sealed boxes with very powerful amplifiers (locate them in another room), this will also allow for very low bass extension. I used to use 12*15" drivers sealed which was quite satisfying for home use.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Loud and deep is extremely relative when talking about subs. Some are happy with a single 10", others still want more when they have an entire wall of 18" drivers.

I suspect four of the Neumans will be plenty for most people in a living room scenario.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

When you guys are refering to «4 if the Neumanns» , do you refere to 4 x 10» woofer cones of the two KH870s or 4x KH870?

 

[MikeFromNorway]

As of powerful consumer subs i guess 2 of these are pretty interesting as well..
Don’t know How they would sound for music though..

Klipsch THX-1200 SW subwoofer, stk THX Ultra 2 subwoofer, sort - Audio Import AS

THX Ultra 2 spesifisert passiv subwoofer med 12" basselement i portet kasse. Anbefalt subforsterker er KA-1000THX. THX-1200 SW er en meget kraftig subba...

www.surround.no

 

[sigbergaudio]

When you guys are refering to «4 if the Neumanns» , do you refere to 4 x 10» woofer cones of the two KH870s or 4x KH870?

I was talking about four subs, but even two is probably sufficient for most. I only have dual subs myself.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Here is another option.
Though i find it hard to figure the spl specs on the kh 420s. Will the subs be totally overkill?

KH 420 + DIM 1

KH 420 + DIM 1 - - Midfield Monitor,Up to 11 m (33 ft),Down to 26 Hz,Down to 34 Hz,Down to 52 Hz,Down to 57 Hz,Digital + Analog Input,Professional Recording Studio,Delay,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft) - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

+

2x

XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - Sort THX, 2700 watt - Audio Import AS

XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - that’s true cinema! XTZ Cinema SUB 3 X 12 Subwoofer - that’s true cinema! har flere ganger vist at de kan subwoofere,...

www.surround.no

 

[Ataraxia]

Just make sure more than one subs are placed and adjusted properly, miniDSP will be huge. Properly placed single sub will be better than improperly placed dual subs. Properly placed and adjusted multiple subs should perform better than a single sub.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

Just make sure more than one subs are placed and adjusted properly, miniDSP will be huge. Properly placed single sub will be better than improperly placed dual subs. Properly placed and adjusted multiple subs should perform better than a single sub.

Thanks for the input.
This was pretty clear from the great science paper shared by Kipman725 with is a must read i guess for anyone doing subs.