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End Game Stereo

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MikeFromNorway
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I went through this subwoofer debate as well, and I landed on a Genelec (bought used for a good deal) in my office, and a pair of SVS SB3000s for my main system. Honestly, there's almost no beating the "consumer" level stuff out there, it works better at the same price as the studio gear, and often by a wide margin.

The DIY route sounds good until you get into finishes... once you veneer or finish those DIY cabinets to a level matching the mass production stuff, you're often within spitting distance. If you plan to just cover the box in carpet or something, no doubt, the DIY stuff is compelling.

Another thing I didn't do but considered in the DIY space, and which might work for you, is an infinite baffle sub... drivers outside the room, with vents / ports into the room. No clutter, super crazy performance, but obviously not simple.
@kipman725, @FrantzM

This might be a stupid question, but anyway. Could someone please enlight me when it comes to subwoofer quality/price. I have read the paper on sub placements, I have tried to search the forum on sub-quality. There is a lot of discussion on the output - as in databass measurements.

Searching the web on sub-quality vs performance or the liking gives med balony artticles about "yes, subwoofer cables matter".

I understand there is a consencus that 2 or more cheaper subs are better then one expensive. But...

What differentiates the expencieve from the cheap? is it audiable? anyone with clever comentes, articles or links, please enlighten me. I will give you an example that made me think:

For sale right now in Norway are 2 Martin Longan 212 subs:


It looks like an insane deal as you pay 1/3 the price for a "reference sub" (don't know what that would imply though).

Though, for the same price I can buy 2 brand new Arendal subs 2s


New, with warranty, higher SPL and so on.

I've asked a few dealers. They look with dark eyes on the cheaper subs like SVS, Arendals and so on. "Cabinet resonance, 2 drivers could play out of phase, cheap drivers, cabinets and builds" and so on. Not very scientific.
 

DanielT

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Forward with the saw.

Four five of these in sealed boxes.


Really braced boxes.

Sealed CSS with SPA1000 alternate (3).jpg


Plus subamp with enough power, LP-HP filter plus EQ then you have a good solution.:)

If it works purely practically and aesthetically, one motor inwards and one outwards to reduce the second-tone distortion, see the attached picture.
You come from Norway so you understand this text, the technical explanation why it makes sense to do so:


The sls 10 "has a slightly low x-max, but then you have xsls, if you want to spend a little more money and get a bigger x-max.


Regarding filling, subwoofer:


Edit:
Subwoofer is mostly a mathematical exercise. The ability to pump air. Area drivers + x-max is then taken into account.
Assuming low distortion plus the possibility of EQa, it will be a good subwoofer.:)

Please note I am not an expert. That's mostly a few basics. For a more detailed explanation, you can wait for answers from those with more knowledge. :)
 

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OP
MikeFromNorway
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Forward with the saw.

Four five of these in sealed boxes.


Really braced boxes.

View attachment 188624

Plus subamp with enough power, LP-HP filter plus EQ then you have a good solution.:)

If it works purely practically and aesthetically, one motor inwards and one outwards to reduce the second-tone distortion, see the attached picture.
You come from Norway so you understand this text, the technical explanation why it makes sense to do so:


The sls 10 "has a slightly low x-max, but then you have xsls, if you want to spend a little more money and get a bigger x-max.


Regarding filling, subwoofer:


Edit:
Subwoofer is mostly a mathematical exercise. The ability to pump air. Area drivers + x-max is then taken into account.
Assuming low distortion plus the possibility of EQa, it will be a good subwoofer.:)

Please note I am not an expert. That's mostly a few basics. For a more detailed explanation, you can wait for answers from those with more knowledge. :)
Thank you DanielT.

Great info. I don't think I will go the DIY path though as used subs are pretty cheap, I am not good enough with tools for a satisfying result/finish and the price for carpenters in Norway is wild.

Just can't wrap my head around your last comment:
"
Edit:
Subwoofer is mostly a mathematical exercise, the ability to pump air. Area drivers + x-max.
Assuming low distortion plus the possibility of EQa, it will be a good subwoofer.:)".

So you're saying the 60.000nok (7000dollar) subs by Martin Logan would compear to your DIY boxes when it comes to sound quality? (not encounting total output as they use 2x12" woofers).
 

DanielT

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Thank you DanielT.

Great info. I don't think I will go the DIY path though as used subs are pretty cheap, I am not good enough with tools for a satisfying result/finish and the price for carpenters in Norway is wild.

Just can't wrap my head around your last comment:
"
Edit:
Subwoofer is mostly a mathematical exercise, the ability to pump air. Area drivers + x-max.
Assuming low distortion plus the possibility of EQa, it will be a good subwoofer.:)".

So you're saying the 60.000nok (7000dollar) subs by Martin Logan would compear to your DIY boxes when it comes to sound quality? (not encounting total output as they use 2x12" woofers).
At that price? Well let's say four peerless xsls 12", or eight pieces....

Yes, they would blow the ones you mention "60,000 nok (7000 dollars)" off the track altogether, at a much lower price. Plus enough with sensible sub amp power, so you can push the drivers at the bottom (not to do so drive them to the bottom, but as a theoretical starting point for enough amp power, plus power headroom on amp is good to have).:)
But then you have to have understanding neighbors, then imagine a lot of ugly subwoffer cubes with 8 pcs 12 "xsls in your living room. Or 16 pcs sls drivers (still low cost). Where should you fit all the other furniture? WAF? Hell 16 drivers, my own acceptance factor would then kick off ...

I'm almost sure of that, if they, drivers, engine is driven inwards and outwards in any case. That to reduce the distortion. Actually it is not needed with top of the line drivers but for a little cheaper it is a smart trick. :)

But if I am wrong in my assumption, someone more knowledgeable is happy to correct me.:)
 

kipman725

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This might be a stupid question, but anyway. Could someone please enlight me when it comes to subwoofer quality/price. I have read the paper on sub placements, I have tried to search the forum on sub-quality. There is a lot of discussion on the output - as in databass measurements.

There are some things that can improve with price, high excursion drivers with reasonably strong motors are more expensive than a weaker driver as they use more materials that are more expensive and require better tolerance for machining. For a high performance 12" driver you could pay ~400USD. A nice stiff box is also more expensive to construct than a flimsy one. But there isn't any magic to it the Martin Logan subs are just trading on the name. To me paying even 2000 USD for a single 12" sub is crazy but I can understand doing it if you don't have the time/skills or aesthetics are important.
 

Colonel7

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I have read the paper on sub placements, I have tried to search the forum on sub-quality. There is a lot of discussion on the output - as in databass measurements.
I haven't seen @sweetchaos subwoofer comparison spreadsheet mentioned. The CEA standard has a distortion threshold at given Hz and SPL steps at which a sub passes or fails. See Erin's Audio Corner for how he measures subs that go beyond the CEA-A that others use, and about 10 or so subs. You need to use DSP so pass on subs that don't have it or the manufacturer claims it is not needed and is somehow better without it (looking at you REL).
 
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MikeFromNorway
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I haven't seen @sweetchaos subwoofer comparison spreadsheet mentioned. The CEA standard has a distortion threshold at given Hz and SPL steps at which a sub passes or fails. See Erin's Audio Corner for how he measures subs that go beyond the CEA-A that others use, and about 10 or so subs. You need to use DSP so pass on subs that don't have it or the manufacturer claims it is not needed and is somehow better without it (looking at you REL).
Thank you. DSP will be handled by the minidsp shd or similar as I need it to intergrate with the mains anyway.
 

DanielT

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Thank you DanielT.

Great info. I don't think I will go the DIY path though as used subs are pretty cheap, I am not good enough with tools for a satisfying result/finish and the price for carpenters in Norway is wild.

Just can't wrap my head around your last comment:
"
Edit:
Subwoofer is mostly a mathematical exercise, the ability to pump air. Area drivers + x-max.
Assuming low distortion plus the possibility of EQa, it will be a good subwoofer.:)".

So you're saying the 60.000nok (7000dollar) subs by Martin Logan would compear to your DIY boxes when it comes to sound quality? (not encounting total output as they use 2x12" woofers).
You may know this, but I'm writing it anyway.:)

Speakers and how they sound consist of:
FR on axes
Dispersion
Distortion

BUT when it comes to subwoofers you can ignore dispersion. Sub, the sound is spread around and is not directed.

It then remains for subwoofer FR (makes sense with even FR so no frequencies are heard too much / too little). This is solved by measuring with a microphone and then filing to FR with the help of EQ. In principle, you need to do it with all subwoofers, in all listening rooms.
The subwoofer should work up to around 80 Hz, after which the speakers take over. In order not to confuse the frequencies between subwoofers and speakers, you need filters that cut frequencies upwards (from the sub) and downwards (for the speakers).

Distortion. You can not do anything about that. It is what it is. It is what it is in the sub element itself and depending on the construction of the subwoofer.

Why then several subwoofers? Well, the higher the volume you play the more your subwoofer will have to work. The more it works the more distortion. This is how it works with all types of speakers. The more subwoofers, the more you distribute the work between them and the less each of them needs to work. The lower it will be, the less audible distortion (which when it comes to subwoofer ..and speakers in general can definitely be audible, distortion that is) . In addition, it is easier to get an even level of subwoffer bass in the listening room with more subwoffers.

How much you want it to sound is then just a mathematical exercise, that is, how much air is pumped. X-max, ie stroke, how much the driver can pump back and forth. Around 10 mm X-max at least you can have as a rule of thumb (but with more drivers you get away with lower x-max).:)

When the distortion becomes audible is another matter. It can definitely be higher for subs than for higher frequencies. We are less sensitive to distortion in the longest frequencies. BUT a subwoffer can unfortunately have very high distortion.

Distortion, in general, you can test here. When you hear:

 
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MikeFromNorway
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This might not add a lot of science to this forum, but I'm happy to share my subjective experience with 2 fantatsic speaker systems. I will partly be comparing them to each other and to my existing Dipol system.

Dutch & Dutch 8C

Tested by kind representation of a salesman from https://www.thestereoshop.no/ in my living room, which specs are mentioned earlier in this thread.

Placement/setup: 20cm from front wall, aprox 50cm from left corner, 100cm from right corner. Aprox 300cm dist. between speakers, 350cm to listening postion. Placed on stands 45cm tall, tilted 10degrees up. Setup took 45min, tuned pretty flat, expept for 1,5db boost in the bass (my preference). Damn these speakers are heavy! Like lifting a compact pack of bricks.

Listening: 90min, different material, mostly folk, blues, rock, some electronica with a few bass killers as "Bjørk, Hollow 16-bit remix". (be advised, I have blown 4 woofers on the last track).

Listening impression: incredible control and focus. Very revealing. No big surprises exept big sound from "small" boxes. Very conistent, controlled bass. Lacked a bit soundstage, depth/3d was great. Very precise placement of instruments/musicians. Slight "digital/lack of air in the high mids/treble". The tilting helped as my other speakers are 130cm tall, mids and treble comming from 80cm over ground level sounded unnatural to me.

Sigberg Audio SBS1with 2x10D sub, Siberg Audio Manta with 2x10D sub

Tested at home at Sigbergs test room.

Placement/setup: Not measured, but guessing aprox, L-shaped with listening area at 3x5m, roof at 210cm, heavly treated room. Speakers 2m apart, listening position "at back wall", 2,5m from sepakers.

Listening material as with the Dutch.

Listening impression: small speakers with HUGHE, focused sound. The subs truly pressurised the small listening room, making furniture rattle with the deepest bass. The speakers are very focused/direct. More so then the D&D, could be due to room size/shorter listening distance. I found the SBS a little harsh/compressed in the top. A bit forced when playing loud. Very in control, but still a bit unnatural to my likings. The Mantas sounded warmer/more pleasing in the mids/highs. These also sounded more relaxed. The dynamic power/feel of both the speakers felt unlimited. Reminded me of my old Cornwall 3's/ other horn speakers. They could play loud, consistend and in full control. I still lacked some soundstage and some openness in the mids/highs. Definitly preferred the Mantas, though both are superb speakers. I think I prefer more "lifelike, airy sound", it would be nice to test them in my "not so treated" and more spaceous living room.

Conclusion:

Short: not changing a thing from my existing system. The search goes on...

Long: These are all incredible systems. Not cheap, but counting electronics, I would say they are great deals. You get all you need. For ease of setup and WAF (the D&Ds are beautiful) I would recommend the Dutch for anyone looking for a beautiful system covering most needs that is easy intergradable into most normal living rooms.

With the Sigbergs I look forward to the Mantas final edition. I believe theses are more of an endgame setup, at least for me, with 2 subs. If one is willing to play around with placement the ability to separte the subs from the mains is a good thing. They can also go louder and deeper. I know it has been mentioned that the D&Ds can go very loud and they can. Though I felt a bit nervous going loud in my living room and would love some more headroom in the bass. Yes, one can ad subs to the Dutch as well, but then we're moving up a tag to the Ki3 prices.

With both setups I missed some soundstange and openness in the mids/treble. I might be spolied by what I have, but I just love the Dipol speakers ability to disappear, their incredibly large soundstage and their lovely mids and highs were truly missed. The focus, control, directivity and more dynamics doesn't way up for me.

So my future search is narrowed down to one old contester and two new, one that is raved about in the forum and which will end up with a similar price tag if I buy them abroad.

-Neumann KH420 with 2 subs (Arendal 2s/SVS 3000pro) (to be tested in my own living room)
-Sigbergs Manta's (to be tested in my own living room)
-JBL M2s with 4xNcore 400 or 700(similar price) and Minidsp SHD with jbls crossovers.
 

DanielT

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This might not add a lot of science to this forum, but I'm happy to share my subjective experience with 2 fantatsic speaker systems. I will partly be comparing them to each other and to my existing Dipol system.
Nicely written!:)

What kind of sound we like is ultimately still subjective. Of course, you should choose the sound, speakers you like.

With that said, objective data and test results make sense to start from, so you know approximately what one can expect.

Cables, DAC I can buy unheard of. Basically, I also dare to do it with amplifiers (modern amp, with inaudible distortion, noise, which can handle low Ohm and has enough power).

Speakers on the other hand .... well ... Now I have other speakers in progress but let's say I was interested in some in this size:


Would I then go a few miles and buy the ones that now a person sells in the neighboring town? Buy them without listening to them ..?
(I would have done that because they are so popular, you can always sell them if you probably would not like them ...)
 

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MikeFromNorway
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Nicely written!:)

What kind of sound we like is ultimately still subjective. Of course, you should choose the sound, speakers you like.

With that said, objective data and test results make sense to start from, so you know approximately what one can expect.

Cables, DAC I can buy unheard of. Basically, I also dare to do it with amplifiers (modern amp, with inaudible distortion, noise, which can handle low Ohm and has enough power).

Speakers on the other hand .... well ... Now I have other speakers in progress but let's say I was interested in some in this size:


Would I then go a few miles and buy the ones that now a person sells in the neighboring town? Buy them without listening to them ..?
(I would have done that because they are so popular, you can always sell them if you probably would not like them ...)
Thanks Daniel
BTW... if those Elacs are undamaged I would buy them blindly, even if the price is per speaker... They retail new for 6x the price here in norway.
 

DanielT

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Have you studied the speakers that received the highest marks here at ASR?

shot_2022-02-28_17-27-27.png


In any case, again an exciting review you did. Good job, also good job to Sigberg! It will be a ..:p

Edit:
But you said but I just love the Dipol speakers
and if you do, so do you. Then you should have your dipoles, no matter how good now, for example, Amir thinks the top-tested (not dipole) Genelec's are. That's the beauty of HiFi, you can like what you want.:)
(You probably have a listening room and listen to music recordings that are suitable for dipole speakers)
 

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