Dutch & Dutch Vs Persona 9H

[Impossible]

That's the marketing. But when you run "room EQ" the removal of room effects is only true for the region below the transition from modal to stochastic. Above that, speakers will be bent to the will of the target curve. So a bright speaker will be brought under control. The only way around that is to limit the correction. Some will do that but many won't.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about Room EQ. Just EQ. So perhaps you're the one who misunderstood.

Agreed

 

[Chromatischism]

Its a mixed bag for me. On one hand I generally like speakers in the store demo but don’t get similar results at home. The persona, measly little 7f I had the luxury of listening to over a year thru multiple components and I got familiar with them good and not so good. They aren’t the only speakers I chose for sound quality over measurements, but that doesn’t mean good measuring speakers can’t sound good it’s just that they usually sound lifeless because the dynamics that get my feet tapping get lost in the complex xover( total guess). The D&D being active dsp should manage to measure good and maintain dynamics, the 9h (and 7f) has a high sensitivity so average powered amps still generate some excitement. My money would be the D&D because of value

Designing a speaker to be neutral has nothing to do with dynamic capability unless you're talking about low volume listening. There it is true that you need a slight smiley face curve to maintain good sound. I achieve that via neutral speakers + Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. It's not perfect but it is very good. This way the curve flattens out at higher levels as it should.

Otherwise, there are many examples of neutral and very dynamic speakers.

 

[richard12511]

what room where the measurements taken, what amp, what receiver? What equipment was used to take the measurements, what were the settings?...... See my point.

I don't. The room is "no room", and none of those other things affect the sound.

That said, as long as it has good directivity(as the Paradigm measured here does), you should be able to fix it with EQ pretty easily. Out of the box it's likely to sound not very good, but with the EQ fix in place, it may very well be competitive with better "out of the box" speakers, like Revel/KEF.

 

[richard12511]

Again someone give me a symantic definition for natural sounding. Else this stuff you tell yourself is to fill gaps and holes in your argument.

Natural to me means accurate to the recording.

 

[Impossible]

Natural to me means accurate to the recording.

Exactly, its not a symantic definition. This is your personal interpretation. Makes for a pointless debate.

Also no one is getting the original recording and compairing it to what their mic recorded. So your never testing that.

So how can you say something is natural or not based on your own definition?

 

[noobie1]

FWIW, I'll throw my subjective opinions on Paradigm Persona speakers:

1) Listened to 7F at a dealer's showroom for about an hour. Way too bright for my taste. They were playing mostly analog so likely no DRC.
2) Listened to 9H in a small hotel room at LAAS a few years ago. They were excellent and sounded well-balanced. Amir was at the same show and provided very positive impressions of the setup. I think I asked the presenter if DRC was active and they answered affirmative though I could be misremembering.

I've never heard the Dutch 8C in person but I have heard Kii Three's in a dealer's home in his large fully-treated dedicated listening room. They were good. I would probably get Kii 3 over the 7F's but would take the 9H over Kii Three's.

 

[richard12511]

Exactly, its not a symantic definition. This is your personal interpretation. Makes for a pointless debate.

Also no one is getting the original recording and compairing it to what their mic recorded. So your never testing that.

So how can you say something is natural or not based on your own definition?

I'm not sure I understand the question. We can definitely measure which speakers are most natural going by my definition. Others may have different definitions of natural, but that's mine, and when I say speaker A is more natural than speaker B, that's what I mean. Thus, we can definitely see that a Genelec or Revel(for example) are more natural than a Paradigm.

 

[Purité Audio]

Hi-Fi News measured the 9H,
https://www.hifinews.com/content/paradigm-persona-9h-loudspeaker-lab-report

Keith

 

[steve59]

I haven’t heard them yet but I sure would like to hear the kef blades in this price. The persona line has the b running the 7” mid full range, the 3, 5, and 7f all xover the same and use the same tweeter and mid, the 9h is the 7f with 2 additional 8.5” self powered woofers and arc built in so bass can be tuned for the room. I heard the kii3 with bxt bass stands at axpona and while I liked the sound all those tiny drivers playing full range would probably keep me away.

 

[Impossible]

If by natural and "this can defiantly be seen" you mean flat. By all means go buy the flattest speakers you can get.

For anyone wanting speakers that sound good to them and only care about what gives them the most joy go have a listen.

There's lots of talk about flat speakers but who wants them? They sound terrible and lack emotion.

I have a trinnov altitude and it can make speakers sound completely flat but it does not sound pleasing and enjoyable.

It's like feeding my ears bland testelss food.

 

[steve59]

Impossible, this is not the place to get affirmation for the persona line. Not gonna happen. Do what I do play some music and smile

 

[jonfitch]

I think if you are still relatively young with undamaged hearing, the Personas are a bit difficult to listen to on-axis because of the W frequency response. It's quite similar to the old B&W 700 series in terms of tonality. Which is to say, it "works" for people who may be older and have gone to a few too many rock concerts and need a smiley curve EQed speaker.

When I was testing between the Paradigm Persona B, Dynaudio C1, Kef Reference 1, and M126BE, the combination of the big soundstage and rising response made the Persona B not just the brightest out of the 4 but a real struggle to listen to for extended periods of time. I'd say the C1 was the easiest to listen to for a long time because it was so dark (aided by poor dispersion which Stereophile correctly calls it a "mellow" sound signature), followed by the Reference 1. The M126BE seemed the 2nd brightest but it was mostly a result of the reflections from wide dispersion adding a lot of airiness, whereas the Persona B's direct sound was bright/fatiguing.

If you listened to them off-axis I think it was alot easier to deal with but I still couldn't see myself using them for long listening sessions.

 

[Impossible]

Impossible, this is not the place to get affirmation for the persona line. Not gonna happen. Do what I do play some music and smile

Not looking for affirmation. Just a healthy debate.

 

[Vintage57]

’nuf said.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have a trinnov altitude and it can make speakers sound completely flat but it does not sound pleasing and enjoyable.

It's like feeding my ears bland testelss food.

How do you do that with the Altitude?

 

[richard12511]

If by natural and "this can defiantly be seen" you mean flat. By all means go buy the flattest speakers you can get.

For anyone wanting speakers that sound good to them and only care about what gives them the most joy go have a listen.

There's lots of talk about flat speakers but who wants them? They sound terrible and lack emotion.

I have a trinnov altitude and it can make speakers sound completely flat but it does not sound pleasing and enjoyable.

It's like feeding my ears bland testelss food.

Obviously there is room for individual taste, but flat is what sounds best to me, and it's also what sounds best to the vast majority of folks.

Majority of people will prefer a Revel, Kef, Genelec, etc. over the 9H measured above, but that doesn't mean everyone will.

 

[Impossible]

Obviously there is room for individual taste, but flat is what sounds best to me, and it's also what sounds best to the vast majority of folks.

This is factually wrong, through most research people prefer a Harmon type curve. Not flat.

Same as why phone companies boost vibrance on pictures because that's what the majority of people like.

 

[richard12511]

This is factually wrong, through most research people prefer a Harmon type curve. Not flat.

Same as why phone companies boost vibrance on pictures because that's what the majority of people like.

You're mistaking the anechoic/in room targets. The Harman anechoic curve/target(ie what we're talking about here) is a flat line for on axis and LW, with gently sloping off axis.

 

[Impossible]

How do you do that with the Altitude?

The trinnov altitude has one of the most advanced and accurate eq systems and mic for measuring sound.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The trinnov altitude has one of the most advanced and accurate eq systems and mic for measuring sound.

Yes, but unless you have a very complex test rig and procedure, you will not be able to use it to make a speaker "measure flat" in the sense @richard12511 means.

What you will be able to do is make a speaker in-room measure flat, but that's an entirely different (and, I think most here would agree, generally unpleasant) thing from what Richard is advocating.