Dutch & Dutch Vs Persona 9H

[maverickronin]

What would you recommend with 100 db efficiency that goes down to 32 Hz with for $3200 out the door?

Something with with both that efficiency and extension probably won't fit through the door period.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I forget what brand, but they use drivers made of unobtanium which don't require a crossover.

Seriously I not sure there's a speaker at any price that goes that far down with high efficiency. I can't think of a speaker with 100db anechoic sensitivity. Some of the larger Klipsch Heritage series come close but have in room sensitivity measurements. It's not clear why you need such high sensitivity when you already have hearing problems.

Like Putter, I can't think of anything that meets that criteria. Typically, Hoffman weighs in and makes it so that when we increase efficiency that high, we give up a lot of bass extension to get there.

You are probably looking at a 15" bass driver or two with a really big horn. Think JBL Cinema level speakers. Plus subwoofers.

Those are literally the specs of the Klipsch RF7III's - 100dB and 32Hz. You can say "Oh they are really only 95 or 96 dB" But that is still pretty high. My first speaker was a Magnepan, and my amp had a terrible time running it - it would get hot to the touch after 15 minutes. So I swung to the complete opposite end of the spectrum with Klipsch, but I couldn't be happier. The bass extension is real too. It took a lot of break in time, but it is definitely there.

-Geoff

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Something with with both that efficiency and extension probably won't fit through the door period.

Hofmann never met Paul Klipsch I guess! He would have heard a word that Paul was famous for that starts with "Bull". But seriously, my RF7s are 97 lbs each and 49" tall, so I would say they still meet Hofmann's law by not being the slightest bit small.

-Geoff

 

[maverickronin]

Those are literally the specs of the Klipsch RF7III's - 100dB and 32Hz. You can say "Oh they are really only 95 or 96 dB" But that is still pretty high. My first speaker was a Magnepan, and my amp had a terrible time running it - it would get hot to the touch after 15 minutes. So I swung to the complete opposite end of the spectrum with Klipsch, but I couldn't be happier. The bass extension is real too. It took a lot of break in time, but it is definitely there.

Seems like it's closer to 93.

Klipsch overstates their sensitivity a lot. It probably still has close to 10dB on a pair of Maggies though.

Real 100dB efficiency down to the 30s is something more like a Klipschorn, which is 53" H x 31" W X 28" D, and 220 lbs.

 

[richard12511]

What would you recommend with 100 db efficiency that goes down to 32 Hz with for $3200 out the door?
-Geoff

JBL SRX835p almost meets those requirements, with 33Hz extension. I think you're going to have a hard time finding a speaker with those requirements for that price.

Those are literally the specs of the Klipsch RF7III's - 100dB and 32Hz. You can say "Oh they are really only 95 or 96 dB" But that is still pretty high.
-Geoff

Unfortunately, Klipsch games their sensitivity ratings . Actual sensitivity is closer to 90 than it is to 100 if I remember correctly(MZKM has a thread showing actual sensitivity figures). If you're looking for a speaker with actual 100dB efficiency, I would look at the JBL series I posted above. As they're active, I'm not sure of actual sensitivity, but they can play to 137dB(probably 15-20dB higher than the Klipsch), which is what matters.

There may be other options out there that meet your needs, but those are the only ones I know of atm. The JTR Noesis 212RT is 101dB efficient with 27Hz irextension, but they're over your budget.

How big is your room, and how far away do you sit? You may not actually need 100dB efficiency(very few people do imo). Lowering your efficiency needs would open up your options significantly.

*Edit: @maverickronin posted the actual figure, which is in line with what I remember. 92.8dB is still very efficient, though 10x? less so than 100dB efficient. I would take a good look at the JBLs I linked above. I've heard good things about them.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Seems like it's closer to 93.

Klipsch overstates their sensitivity a lot. It probably still has close to 10dB on a pair of Maggies though.

Real 100dB efficiency down to the 30s is something more like a Klipschorn, which is 53" H x 31" W X 28" D, and 220 lbs.

I can assure you it is much more than 10 dB on Maggies, considering the LRS's came it at 80.1 to an 86 dB claim and they are similar to the .7's I had. I have had both in my living room and I could talk over the maggies when my receiver was practically smoking. The Klipsch's get loud at 1 watt.

I didn't mean to come here and turn it into debate club. I was just commenting on some Persona Speakers since I actually heard them in person and was quite amazed by them. That is all. If you want to debate which speaker sounds better to me in my living room, maybe we should start a new thread? Or hey, are you near Detroit in the midwest? Grab a 6-pack and come on over!

-Geoff

 

[Chromatischism]

Those are literally the specs of the Klipsch RF7III's - 100dB and 32Hz. You can say "Oh they are really only 95 or 96 dB"

Well there is a huge difference between 100 dB and 96 dB sensitivity. We're talking half the potential loudness.

But it's actually quite a bit worse than that.

In reality, it isn't a problem. No one in a home environment needs speakers with more than 93 dB sensitivity so the guy's requirements are both far-fetched and unnecessary.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Seems like it's closer to 93.

Klipsch overstates their sensitivity a lot. It probably still has close to 10dB on a pair of Maggies though.

Real 100dB efficiency down to the 30s is something more like a Klipschorn, which is 53" H x 31" W X 28" D, and 220 lbs.

I also doubt those speakers hit 32Hz at -3dB. This measurement puts their -3dB point somewhere in the high 30s.

Anyway, wasn't this supposed to be @Manojrc's thread?

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Well there is a huge difference between 100 dB and 96 dB sensitivity. We're talking half the potential loudness.

But it's actually quite a bit worse than that.

In reality, it isn't a problem. No one in a home environment needs speakers with more than 93 dB sensitivity so the guy's requirements are both far-fetched and unnecessary.

You know what they say about opinions.

 

[richard12511]

I also doubt those speakers hit 32Hz at -3dB. This measurement put their sensitivity at 96.3dB and the -3dB point somewhere in the high 30s.

Anyway, wasn't this supposed to be @Manojrc's thread?

Ha. I didn't even notice they were separate people. I thought @SomeGeoffGuy was the OP, and he was looking for 100dB efficient speakers that extend to 32Hz. Brain fart.

 

[Ilkless]

You know what they say about opinions.

You can say "Oh they are really only 95 or 96 dB" But that is still pretty high.

What a dismissive attitude towards a relevant, but inconvenient fact to the flawed premise of your leading question.

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

What a dismissive attitude towards a relevant, but inconvenient fact to the flawed premise of your leading question.

Yea, sorry for asking a question on the internet and expecting people not to be aholes. Have fun bench racing graphs. I will be out there listening to actual speakers.

-Geoff

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yea, sorry for asking a question on the internet and expecting people not to be aholes. Have fun bench racing graphs. I will be out there listening to actual speakers.

-Geoff

Sorry if we came across as aholes. I can assure you that, at least for my own part, any animosity detected in my comments was directed at manufacturers who grossly overstate loudspeaker sensitivity and bass extension, which leads to figures like the one you quoted not seeming miraculous to the general public. This in turn disadvantages manufacturers who don’t claim utter BS, hence my irritation.

For 100dB sensitivity and 32Hz extension, in reality you'd be in the terrain of 4 x 18-21" PA subwoofers and an enclosure well into the 100s of litres (unless you measured in 2pi space, as is the convention for standalone subs, but not loudspeakers).

And yes I agree, 95-96dB is extremely sensitive for a loudspeaker.

 

[Ilkless]

Yea, sorry for asking a question on the internet and expecting people not to be aholes. Have fun bench racing graphs. I will be out there listening to actual speakers.

-Geoff

I echo @andreasmaaan here. The issue is with terrible fudged sensitivity figures. 95-96dB is extraordinary, if measured across the passband (ie. honest figures), so the problem is that citing exceedingly high figures established to be fudged by companies (Klipsch is notorious for it) really distorts the yardsticks to compare high-sensitivity speakers by. Honest companies that have lower figures are penalised with a comparison that isn't apples-for-apples. In reality, I'd take a ~95dB smooth, well-controlled design - still plenty sensitive for pretty much any amp and most listening. High sensitivity has to be read in context with response smoothness, dispersion and impedance curve.

 

[Chromatischism]

I echo @andreasmaaan here. The issue is with terrible fudged sensitivity figures. 95-96dB is extraordinary, if measured across the passband (ie. honest figures), so the problem is that citing exceedingly high figures established to be fudged by companies (Klipsch is notorious for it) really distorts the yardsticks to compare high-sensitivity speakers by. Honest companies that have lower figures are penalised with a comparison that isn't apples-for-apples. In reality, I'd take a ~95dB smooth, well-controlled design - still plenty sensitive for pretty much any amp and most listening. High sensitivity has to be read in context with response smoothness, dispersion and impedance curve.

Klipsch doesn't fudge their numbers, they just use a different metric, like 1/8th space or something.

 

[Putter]

Klipsch doesn't fudge their numbers, they just use a different metric, like 1/8th space or something.

As I stated in my original reply, Klipsch uses In Room measurements at least that's what is stated on their website. This is as opposed to anechoic where there are no room reinforcement.

 

[Chromatischism]

It's even higher than the typical in-room spec. Usually that adds about 3 dB.

 

[andreasmaaan]

To be fair to Klipsch, have you seen the metrics Genelec uses to fudge their max. SPL specs? And that's a highly reputable company. (At least Genelec includes their very specific qualifications in every spec sheet, I guess).

 

[Kravi4ka]

Having owned the D&D 8C I must say that for me it is the bargain of the century. Read Mitcho's review, it says so much,take into account that nowadays a good rack costs as much, even think about what Keith wrote(his favourite speaker of all the crazy expensive stuff he has had through his hands, let alone he has access to) and just demo a pair.

If you spend the time to help it do what it can do so well and you are about the music, not the bling or the bragging rights this could be the last speaker you might need in a long time. Wish there was a good interface though...

 

[Sancus]

To be fair to Klipsch, have you seen the metrics Genelec uses to fudge their max. SPL specs? And that's a highly reputable company. (At least Genelec includes their very specific qualifications in every spec sheet, I guess).

Forgivable IMO because their spec actually reflects the real-world output pretty accurately and they specify the conditions in detail.