Dutch & Dutch Vs Persona 9H

[richard12511]

Yes, but unless you have a very complex test rig and procedure, you will not be able to use it to make a speaker "measure flat" in the sense @richard12511 means.

What you will be able to do is make a speaker in-room measure flat, but that's an entirely different (and, I think most here would agree, generally unpleasant) thing from what Richard is advocating.

Agreed. It might depend on listening distance, but I agree that most would likely find a flat in room curve to be too bright. I know that's true for myself.

 

[Chromatischism]

Natural to me means accurate to the recording.

But if the recording was designed to not sound natural, then I would argue that "natural" is not the speaker's job, strictly speaking. The speaker should be delivering all frequencies at equal SPL in its frontal hemisphere. Going slightly further one could make adjustments for personal hearing differences, so that all frequencies are perceived as equal in loudness. Then you have a speaker system that is not changing the sound of the recording and if the recording is natural-sounding, so too will be the speaker system.

Paradigm speakers are changing the sound of the recording and if I were a recording engineer I would not be happy about that.

Clearly there is very good engineering behind them but then they go in and intentionally tweak crossover values to accentuate things to taste but in much more than just small amounts.

 

[richard12511]

I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical of those 9H measurements above. Any other sources? I have a hard time believing it's that bad when we now have anechoic measurements of the Prestige 15B, and it's nowhere near that bad. Am I crazy to be skeptical here?

 

[jonfitch]

I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical of those 9H measurements above. Any other sources? I have a hard time believing it's that bad when we now have anechoic measurements of the Prestige 15B, and it's nowhere near that bad. Am I crazy to be skeptical here?

The plot posted earlier seems like from Sound & Vision which has a narrower axis on the graph which compresses the shape of the curve quite a bit. But the overall shape of the plot doesn't seem off compared to Soundstage's NRC measurements, or Harman's anechoic measurements posted at the beginning of the thread.

 

[richard12511]

But if the recording was designed to not sound natural, then I would argue that "natural" is not the speaker's job, strictly speaking.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. How the recording is designed to sound shouldn't affect my definition of natural, unless I'm missing something. In your example, if a recording was intentionally designed to sound unnatural, then the most "natural" speaker would still be the speaker that's most faithful to what's there, though it would obviously sound "unnatural"(assuming the engineer did a good job).

Paradigm speakers are changing the sound of the recording and if I were a recording engineer I would not be happy about that.

I agree, and it's likely why most tend to prefer neutral speakers. Even if you don't respect the work of most mix/mastering engineers, you have to assume that their efforts lead to better results than random chance.

I imagine a piece of art surrounded by a glass case in a museum. Certain paintings may look better with blue tinted glass, but if you're going for the glass case that looks best on average, you want a clear case. In our world, the artists and engineers are the painters, and the loudspeakers are the glass case. Some seem to view loudspeakers as art in and of themselves, though, where I just view them as vehicles to deliver the art.

 

[jonfitch]

Personally when I tested the Persona B I couldn't even stand to listen to them on-axis. So I only measured them at ~20-25 degrees and at about ~35-40 degrees off axis, because I kept angling the speakers away from me in order to reduce the rising treble response. I think the Soundstage measurements were pretty accurate as my ~35 degree measurements look about the same in the mids/highs as their 30 degree curve.

About 20-25 degrees off-axis

About 35-40 degrees off-axis

 

[Impossible]

Here is a measurement of my 9h's this was before run in.

The top graph is before eq and the bottom is after.

 

[jonfitch]

Is that a receiver room correction software? And what was the measuring distance?

 

[Impossible]

But if the recording was designed to not sound natural, then I would argue that "natural" is not the speaker's job, strictly speaking. The speaker should be delivering all frequencies at equal SPL in its frontal hemisphere. Going slightly further one could make adjustments for personal hearing differences, so that all frequencies are perceived as equal in loudness. Then you have a speaker system that is not changing the sound of the recording and if the recording is natural-sounding, so too will be the speaker system.

Paradigm speakers are changing the sound of the recording and if I were a recording engineer I would not be happy about that.

Clearly there is very good engineering behind them but then they go in and intentionally tweak crossover values to accentuate things to taste but in much more than just small amounts.

Were not talking about recording studios here. Because their job is to produce sound as accurate as possible. Even if they are bright and one can not have decent listening sessions or if they feel lifeless.

These speakers are for enjoyment.

 

[Impossible]

Is that a receiver room correction software? And what was the measuring distance?

This is using room eq from trinnov, it's what many major sound studios and film studios use.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Were not talking about recording studios here. Because their job is to produce sound as accurate as possible. Even if they are bright and one can not have decent listening sessions or if they feel lifeless.

These speakers are for enjoyment.

I just want to make sure you understand that a neutral speaker is not the same thing as a speaker that produces a flat response in a given listening room.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the 9H is actually brighter than a neutral speaker.

Also, what do you mean by recording studios' "job is to produce sound as accurate as possible"?

 

[Chromatischism]

Persona B:

Looks like the same trend but the vertical axis is slightly different. There are more pixels per dB in the 1st measurement which creates some vertical skew by comparison.

On my display:

10 dB = 14/16"
vs
10 dB = 11/16"

By absolutely dB, I see:

From 3 kHz to 10 kHz:
90 dB to 98 dB = +8 dB
84 dB to 91 dB = +7 dB

It is indeed very close to the NRC measurement of the bookshelf and what are you seeing is just two different graphs.

Edit: @jonfitch beat me to it.

 

[Impossible]

I just want to make sure you understand that a neutral speaker is not the same thing as a speaker that produces a flat response in a given listening room.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the 9H is actually brighter than a neutral speaker.

Also, what do you mean by recording studios' "job is to produce sound as accurate as possible"?

Sorry what I meant is a speaker for use in a recording studio should produce sound as accurate as possible.

 

[richard12511]

Here is a measurement of my 9h's this was before run in.

The top graph is before eq and the bottom is after.

What is that program? Bottom measurement looks really good . I bet that sounds great!

 

[Impossible]

It's the trinnov optimizer.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Sorry what I meant is a speaker for use in a recording studio should produce sound as accurate as possible.

And how in your opinion should a speaker for home use differ?

 

[Impossible]

Speakers for home use are for enjoyment.
The happier they make you the better they are.

A bit like going on a bullet train where you might even fall asleep
Vs
Going much slower on a roller-coaster and finish giggling and smiling.

Or listening to a recording of your favourt artis
Vs
Listening to them live.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Speakers for home use are for enjoyment.
The happier they make you the better they are.

A bit like going on a bullet train where you might even fall asleep
Vs
Going much slower on a roller-coaster and finish giggling and smiling.

Or listening to a recording of your favourt artis
Vs
Listening to them live.

But you have no opinion on the matter from a technical POV?

 

[richard12511]

And how in your opinion should a speaker for home use differ?

Personally, I think they're mostly the same, and that's a really great thing.

For professional use, you want to hear what's on the recording, so you want the flattest and most accurate sound.
For home use, you want what sounds the best, and it just so happens that the flattest and most accurate sound is what sounds best to most people, myself included .

 

[Impossible]

But you have no opinion on the matter from a technical POV?

Beauty or in this matter music, is in the eye of the beholder. No need to be technical it's completely emotional.

Anyone buying speakers looking technical is fooling themselfs. Do you buy music the same way?