Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[echopraxia]

P.S. I can't believe you ran that test without hearing protection

WHAAAT!? SPEAK UP, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

I figured exposure to this SPL for a few seconds shouldn’t cause any permanent damage. This clip had relatively little treble, else I wouldn’t be able to stand it. I did cover one ear with my hand and look sideways so my other ear only heard the reflections and bass. But yeah, I couldn’t continue beyond the one test unless I go get my ear muffs.

 

[echopraxia]

So if you do the math with Toole's -3dB/DD curve for in-room loudness, that's roughly 112-113dB at 1 meter which, perhaps unsurprisingly, is the exact general max SPL spec Genelec provides for the 8351B in half space.

True! I’m impressed that they didn’t inflate that spec then (because it’s so easy to do so with non-bass tones).

Needless to say, I don’t find SPL to be a problem with these speakers. That said, I’m sure they would self limit earlier if a song appeared with heavy content around 30-40hz. Obviously not much beats a subwoofer’s SPL there. But I am very happy with the SPL capabilities of these for just about any music I’ll be listening to.

BTW, some initial subjective listening impressions: To my ears, I think the Revel F206 I had (from memory) were somewhat wider dispersion. And my Ascend Sierra RAAL Towers sound like much wider dispersion. It becomes pretty obvious when you focus on how much sound is coming from the front vs sides. The Genelec dispersion width is still good though.

I think for larger rooms, I definitely prefer wide dispersion. I’ve already established that in smaller rooms and for more analytical listening, really wide dispersion is not so much preferred — and maybe even a detriment as the imaging gets blurred. For example, when I tried my Ascends in my small home office (where the Genelecs are now dedicated), I didn’t like it that much. The Genelecs are incredible in there though.

In contrast, in a larger room, the results are swapped and I find wider dispersion is preferred for reclined listening enjoyment (except for the fact that in every respect other than dispersion width the Genelecs are incredible and win easily).

In any case, these are still very early impressions. I need more time to be sure. Right now most impressions are from memory since I don’t currently have an easy way to switch back and forth.

It will really be interesting when the Salon 2’s arrive. If they are as wide horizontal dispersion as they appear, I suspect they will be perfect for this room

 

[Sancus]

Yeah, this seems more than adequate, I would bet you can get at least 5dB more out of them with subs, which I'll be using. I won't get my 8351Bs until September, it's going to be a tough wait.... Since they'll be used in a small-room multi-channel setup with Auro3D upmixing enabled most of the time(with stereo content) I'm not worried about wanting wider dispersion.

 

[echopraxia]

Yeah, this seems more than adequate, I would bet you can get at least 5dB more out of them with subs, which I'll be using. I won't get my 8351Bs until September, it's going to be a tough wait.... Since they'll be used in a small-room multi-channel setup with Auro3D upmixing enabled most of the time(with stereo content) I'm not worried about wanting wider dispersion.

Oh yeah, I will have to try multi-channel upmixing as well and see if it normalizes the dispersion difference. I suspect it will; I find I really enjoy music in this mode much of the time.

 

[q3cpma]

Am I the only one giddy like a child knowing both the 8351B and 8030C are going to be measured by Amir? The One will probably break the high score and the 8030C emerge as the best nearfield speaker in the 1000€/pair range.

 

[thewas]

I hope he will measure both the 8030C and KH120 and think it would be a very interesting and hard battle.

 

[echopraxia]

Probably last point on Neumann and Genelec before I move them back: Subjectively I’d say that the Neumann KH310 and Genelec bass are very similar in quality and quantity. Where the Genelec really pulls ahead of anything else is in the mids and treble clarity/transparency/air. Going back from the Genelecs to just about anything I have other than the Ascend RAAL Towers is relatively unsatisfying in the mids/treble. It is really incredible.

It’s also the best at bass/midbass to my ears, except for the Neumann which is so close that I’d call it a tie (Genelec definitely pulls ahead hugely if you use the built-in room correction on it and nothing on the Neumann, obviously).

The Ascend RAAL Towers are still extraordinarily impressive to me in that they hold up pretty well in terms of subjective enjoyment, but in a very different way — where I think a lot of that comes from the dispersion of the mids and treble, as I mentioned. The Genelec wins by a large margin in every other aspect. When I turn on multichannel audio, the dispersion gap definitely closes and the multichannel setup wins at that nice “surround” sound with the caveat that my ascend rear surrounds don’t tonally match so it’s a little weird in that sense.

For home theater with subwoofers (which is all I tested), I can attest the system has absolutely no problem of hitting 105db peaks (though I can’t say how much of that is from my subwoofers). Not a hint of distortion or compression anywhere throughout. To me it sounds way better than my Ascends do for home theater, probably due to the midbass. It sounds very full and punchy and satisfying in all the ways you would want a home theater to be

 

[Vintage57]

Does this mean it’s time to audition Genelec, it’s a rhetorical question. But I just discovered the Neuman’s a year ago.

 

[Ilkless]

Does this mean it’s time to audition Genelec, it’s a rhetorical question. But I just discovered the Neuman’s a year ago.

I think as a standalone speaker, the 420s are from a different class in SPL capability to the 8351B. Yes, directivity isn't as uniform vertically, but the speaker is still lightyears ahead of the vast majority of speakers.

 

[Sancus]

I think as a standalone speaker, the 420s are from a different class in SPL capability to the 8351B. Yes, directivity isn't as uniform vertically, but the speaker is still lightyears ahead of the vast majority of speakers.

At least here, they're also about 40% more expensive than the 8351B. It's probably more fair to compare them to the 8361A, both flagships of their lineup.

 

[q3cpma]

At least here, they're also about 40% more expensive than the 8351B. It's probably more fair to compare them to the 8361A, both flagships of their lineup.

Probably, but performance (other than SPL) wise, the 8351B is the flagship. Actually, W371A + 8351B is the actual flagship.

 

[Sancus]

Probably, but performance (other than SPL) wise, the 8351B is the flagship. Actually, W371A + 8351B is the actual flagship.

Well, sure, I agree with you, but W371A+8351B is so much more expensive than either that it becomes apples and oranges comparison, imo.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

You would need to move up to something like the 1237A to compete with 420. The Ones are more designed around non ideal rooms and space constraints.

 

[Sancus]

You would need to move up to something like the 1237A to compete with 420. The Ones are more designed around non ideal rooms and space constraints.

We don't really know how loud the 8351B/8361A get anechoically. They both have redesigned, larger tweeters and midranges than previous models, and the 8361A has a substantially upgraded woofer as well. If we go purely by spec, the KH420 is speced at 122dB in half space from 100hz up, and the 8361A is speced at 118dB. With the W371A, I'm sure it gains more than 4dB, probably more like 6-10.

The 1237A has a larger woofer and more power than the KH420 and is a more conventional design so I would be surprised if it doesn't get significantly louder than it, anyways.

In any case all these numbers seem totally nuts to me so I don't really get the continuing insistence that the Ones are so SPL limited. Obviously they're not compression driver monsters meant for 5m+ listening distances but for anything under 3-4m they are more than adequate.

 

[q3cpma]

In any case all these numbers seem totally nuts to me so I don't really get the continuing insistence that the Ones are so SPL limited. Obviously they're not compression driver monsters meant for 5m+ listening distances but for anything under 3-4m they are more than adequate.

I get it, since the 8351A's racetrack drivers were flawed and compressing very early. Genelec should seriously offer an upgrade system to the B version, because the buyers were kind of beta testing, here.

(just a reminder, I'm sure everyone has seen it by now)

I guess Amir's listening test is also part of it, though I'm still baffled when reading Genelec's specs that anyone wouldn't consider that loud.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

We don't really know how loud the 8351B/8361A get anechoically. They both have redesigned, larger tweeters and midranges than previous models, and the 8361A has a substantially upgraded woofer as well. If we go purely by spec, the KH420 is speced at 122dB in half space from 100hz up, and the 8361A is speced at 118dB. With the W371A, I'm sure it gains more than 4dB, probably more like 6-10.

The 1237A has a larger woofer and more power than the KH420 and is a more conventional design so I would be surprised if it doesn't get significantly louder than it, anyways.

In any case all these numbers seem totally nuts to me so I don't really get the continuing insistence that the Ones are so SPL limited. Obviously they're not compression driver monsters meant for 5m+ listening distances but for anything under 3-4m they are more than adequate.

Unless we know for sure the absolute limits of hearing speaker distortion (each driver will distort in different ways), then it's hard to say whether the additional headroom is overkill.

 

[echopraxia]

Unless we know for sure the absolute limits of hearing speaker distortion (each driver will distort in different ways), then it's hard to say whether the additional headroom is overkill.

Yes, and I didn’t test this audibly. My SPL test above was just looking for the limiter light to engage. That said, I didn’t hear anything obviously wrong with the sound.

My comparison of the bass comes just from subjectively listening to a few tracks at normal levels to me, which don’t usually exceed 90db at the listening positions. All I can say is I didn’t notice a significant quality difference.

I’m quite sure the KH420 would blow away any of these in overall bass power. It also seems to measure better than the KH310.

OH one thing I forgot to mention! In the same way the Ascend RAAL Towers have the widest soundstage than anything I have, the Neumann KH310 had a relatively minor but noticible soundstage width advantage over the Genelecs! In bigger rooms for stereo listening, I prefer this wider dispersion. However in this case my overall preference still goes to the Genelecs. When I compare to the Ascends the overall preference is more difficult because they sound just so wide, and their upper mids and treble are close (but can’t compete in the lower frequencies).

For smaller rooms and closer listening positions, I definitely find I prefer the Genelecs (I’m guessing because of narrower dispersion), so they are perfect for what I bought them for (home office music).

When my Salon2’s arrive, if I find them to have comparable or superior soundstage width to my Ascends due to their extremely wide dispersion, then I will consider the theory of me preferring wider dispersion in large rooms to be effectively confirmed to my own satisfaction. If so, the Salon2’s will be perfect for relaxed listening in larger rooms at greater listening distance, and the Genelecs will be perfect for closer listening distances.

 

[Bwmr]

Late to this thread, but coming back to the original question: has anyone considered the Janszen Active speakers? They sound the most clear and neutral of all speakers I heard. I wonder how do they measure.
https://janszenaudio.com/collections/floor-standing-loudspeakers

 

[djanszen]

Late to this thread, but coming back to the original question: has anyone considered the Janszen Active speakers? They sound the most clear and neutral of all speakers I heard. I wonder how do they measure.
https://janszenaudio.com/collections/floor-standing-loudspeakers

Just noticed your posting very late, but here ya go:

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I am still finding that I am hearing things on the Genelec 8351B that I am not on any other system I have — subwoofer or no subwoofer (except the Neumann KH310 which I’ve not yet tested).

If you want to easily test what I’m hearing, play the first 10 seconds of AC/DC Back in Black. The song starts with some initial tempo beats by the drummer and guitar (lightly). What I had not head before was that between each of the first ~8 tempo beats is a very subtle “thump” sound (from what exactly, I don’t know, but it could be a hand tapping/resting gently on a resonant surface close to a mic, or the mic itself). On the Genelec 8351B it is a very distinct and well defined thump — a clear transient bass impulse that has a clearly defined beginning and end.

On every other system I have tried to hear this, the sound is not only very quiet, but indistinct/blurry. When I do hear it, the “thump” timing seems to be off tempo, and the sound generally just sounds smeared/blurry. Some of the bass frequencies are there, but it just sounds like a delayed rumble and not a distinctive 'impulse' sound like I hear on the Genelecs.

I‘m guessing it’s probably thanks to the room correction yielding flatter bass than my other systems (which I don’t have on any other system, because they either don’t support it or because I haven’t bought the separate Audessy app to prevent it from messing up the sound above the Schroeder frequency).

Edit: I just tried listening with room correction disabled on the Genelecs. Now, the thumping sound is definitely quieter and harder to hear. But the sound is still distinct and un-blurred! It still sounds like a 'crisp' / 'unblurred' bass pulse whose start/stop is very well defined (I don't know how else to describe it aside from these subjective terms), more so than when testing the same clip on speakers + subwoofers. When I test the sound on my other speakers without subwoofers enabled, this sound is a bit more 'crisp', but much much harder to hear because without the subwoofer on my other speakers it's barely audible at all.

Update on old news from slowpoke like me. I was reading this while listening to my Etymotic ER-4S.
At first i wasnt sure what to listen to. But then it hit me and I could heat the thump. Also then I heard the guy actually counting "one, two" several times before saying "four" and the the band kicking in.
These are really cool details.