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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

PCMusic

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During speaker audition I agree with Keith that it's the best to do a home loan, and then you have the knowhow to put the speakers at the 'best' and the least compromised positions in your home. Only can you do this you could know how it could truly deliver in your home.

But there are several points here:

1. 'Knowhow' - speaker placement is largely science, and a bit of art. The goal is to find where with reference to your free/fixed listening position the speaker really 'sings the best' with your room. Scientifically it always means least distorted FR, least standing waves and bass nodes and valleys, and so on. There's also an subjective side - what music you like, how much live you want your room to be for different music (art).

There are different approaches to speaker placements, but at the end it's also a practice which needs experience.

Some friends I know seldom experiment speaker placement. Some even go to a hifi shop and listen to a speaker models at a position pre-arranged by the dealers. When they come back saying - the speakers are no good. I know they probably are not listening to the best those speakers could perform.

Other weird way of evaluating speakers include placing them side by side ...

2. If you could borrow and place at home - but do you have free speaker placement and listening positioning? If no, you are at your best judge the speakers from the best compromised locations (if you know how to achieve it) at your home. In fact, this is the situations of many people who need to incorporate domestic needs with hifi hobby. Nothing to be ashamed of. But this fact at least for me mean two things.

1. Don't hastily generalize our experiences of the compromised positions to a general evaluation of the speakers.
2. If it doesn't work in our room, it may perform well in other rooms (different sizes, room treatment, positioning etc).

As in the place I live, home load is not a common practice. This is the only thing I could do:

1. look for the possibility of listening to the speakers in a room size with acoustics similar to mine (if not, note their room treatment and take this into account)

2. regardless of whether you could do point no. 1 - insist you could move the speakers with your knowhow of achieving the best room-speaker synergy. If one is not experienced in speaker placements, s/he may misjudge the speakers' performance as the dealers may not have positioned them in the best positions.

Of course, if your dealer is very knowledgeable, you may save your work here.

But in my experience of auditioning 8c, I moved speakers several times, and the performance varies a LOT (I am testing it in freestanding mode). 8c could reduce the need for room treatment, but still subject to speaker placement rules (esp in freestanding mode). The relative distances between the speakers, speaker-sidewalls-and-front walls, also make noticeable difference.

After all, I don't look for the best speakers, I just look for the speakers whose design could minimize my own room problems (and suits my music taste).

Sorry I am a bit tired of 8c is better than Genelec, which is better than Grimm, which is better than Kii, and Kii is better than 8c kind of debate :)
 
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richard12511

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Disappointing to travel so far and then not be wowed, I firmly believe speakers have to be compared in your own space.
Perhaps it’s time that manufacturers removed retailers completely, ship directly to the customers home, set-up and measurement remotely, REW sends any filters directly to the 8Cs.
Keith

I could see where that would be costly. You'd have a few people try them in bad faith just to hear them. Then you'd have people like me who would order 2 or 3 at the same time and only purchase 1. That said, I'd go really out of my way to support a manufacturer that did that. I'd pay a higher price, drive several hundred miles to save them shipping costs, give them future business, favor them over much closer dealers, etc.

You're right that in home comparison really is the best way to compare and get what you really want. The nearest D&D dealer to me doesn't do demos, and is still a few hundred miles away :(.
 

Purité Audio

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Yes but the manufacturer when there is a sale receives the full amount, the retail price might be lowered as there is no dealer margin.
And you are guaranteed a properly installed, measured and optimised evaluation.
Personally I believe the dealer has to add value, anyone can shift boxes.
It might be worth writing to Martijn directly?
Keith
 

richard12511

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Yes but the manufacturer when there is a sale receives the full amount, the retail price might be lowered as there is no dealer margin.
And you are guaranteed a properly installed, measured and optimised evaluation.
Personally I believe the dealer has to add value, anyone can shift boxes.
It might be worth writing to Martijn directly?
Keith

I'm in College Station, Texas. D&D dealer is in Austin, and I have a couple options for Kii(Houston, Dallas). D&D dealer doesn't do demos, but I'm guessing that might just be a temporary thing due to Covid(I'm hoping).

Texas is actually quite sparse with dealers in comparison to other states with less population. I suppose it's cause we're so dang spread out. We're twice the size of the UK, with nowhere near the population.
 

Cadguy

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@HairyEars May I ask you how far away do you sit from your Genelec 1032s and how far apart they are? How far are they from the front wall?
 

HairyEars

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@HairyEars May I ask you how far away do you sit from your Genelec 1032s and how far apart they are? How far are they from the front wall?

I’ve religiously adhered to the Genelec’s guideline, forming a 190cm equilateral listening triangle, with the monitors toed-in at 60-degree angle (said distances are acoustic axis to acoustic axis between the monitors, and acoustic axis to ear level). The rear of the monitor is 160cm from the front wall.

According to Genelec’s old guide, the optimal zones from the front wall were either 5cm-60cm or anything over 110cm (the range in between is subject to wall cancellations).

BTW, a limited acoustic treatment made a considerable difference in my room. I laid absorbing panels on the ceiling area over the listening triangle and further out, while the lower portion of the rear wall is covered with diffractors. I first glued neatly-cut pieces of sponge to the panels, to create an additional buffer between the wall surface and the back of the panel (panel – air pocket – wall). According to empirical research, that strategy helps reduce reflections.
 
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Pearljam5000

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I’ve religiously adhered to the Genelec’s guideline, forming a 190cm equilateral listening triangle, with the monitors toed-in at 60-degree angle (said distances are acoustic axis to acoustic axis between the monitors, and acoustic axis to ear level). The rear of the monitor is 160cm from the front wall.

According to Genelec’s old guide, the optimal zones from the front wall were either 5cm-60cm or anything over 110cm (the range in between is subject to wall cancellations).

BTW, a limited acoustic treatment made a considerable difference in my room. I laid absorbing panels on the ceiling area over the listening triangle and further out, while the lower portion of the rear wall is covered with diffractors. I first glued neatly-cut pieces of sponge to the panels, to create an additional buffer between the wall surface and the back of the panel (panel – air pocket – wall). According to empirical research, that strategy helps reduce reflections.
Can you describe the difference in sound between 8341A and 1032C? Thanks.
 

BYRTT

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.....I tried to match the same format as Amir's for you guys who use the data to do stuff but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some differences. I'll try to resolve them. PM me.

Feedback on format for the two txt-files named "SPL Horizontal" & "SPL Vertical" is they excelent printed, and thousand thanks share review+ files+hard work :).. i could be wrong here but in spinorama below that the 2 times index curve plus the upper 5 times curves criss cross each other around the 80Hz frequency point and my used ideal curves do the same makes me think that can make sense for you have a good low end allignment for Klippel scanner.

Dutch_&_Dutch_8C_2.png
 

muslhead

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Any USA D&D owners find a dealer that is flexible on price? I have not had any luck. PM's are welcomed.
 

muslhead

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No, but the Apr. 2021 list price will seem like a bargain once inflation really gets going.
you have been warned of the impending increase? i didnt hear of one yet. I better get off my butt
 

Dialectic

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you have been warned of the impending increase? i didnt hear of one yet. I better get off my butt
I have no word of a D&D increase and was referring to inflation in the wider economy. It seems that prices of almost everything have been going up rapidly in the USA, faster than official inflation figures would indicate.
 
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