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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

youngho

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I will assume there is some language barrier here and/or I didn't explain above clearly enough.
So I'll try to explain my thought process a little better.
I should have also stated that I was looking for comments about why this would or wouldn't work. To expand my understanding.

Yes, I generally understand the region and purpose for cardioid in these speakers.
This (cardioid) is achieved passive (via the side slots)?
If so, the rear LF drivers are only there for only for LF, it's not to achieve cardioid response (in the 100-500hz range).
But my understanding on some speakers that are actively achieving cardioid via using the rear drive as cancelation in this range.
If my understanding of a)how these achieve cardioid is correct and b) looking at the near field driver the MF and HF can cover from 80~100hz and up.
Then these speakers could be made without the LF drivers. And the LF area could be covered by subs.
This would reduce the size and cost of the speakers. And move the LF to subs which are likely less expensive than the LF portion of this speaker and have better flexibility for placement in room.
Wouldn't it just be shallower? Can't get much narrower or shorter.

The Gradient 1.4 is another passive cardioid design, as is the midrange unit of the Gradient Helsinki 1.5.
 
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Puddingbuks

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Could you use a MiniDSP product like the SHD?
Yes, but why do I have to use another device for this? D&D should deliver on software promises. It must be very simple to do this.

Roon same deal.

On paper everything works perfect, but in reality not.
 

youngho

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Yes, but why do I have to use another device for this? D&D should deliver on software promises. It must be very simple to do this.

Roon same deal.

On paper everything works perfect, but in reality not.
The copy of the 8M manual that I found says, "Subwoofer output The second male XLR connector (8) is a subwoofer output, intended for use with an external active subwoofer. Various filtering and equalization options such as high– and low pass filters, peak filters, delays and phase inversion can be applied to the subwoofer output." Is this what you mean by promises? Just curious.
 

Puddingbuks

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The copy of the 8M manual that I found says, "Subwoofer output The second male XLR connector (8) is a subwoofer output, intended for use with an external active subwoofer. Various filtering and equalization options such as high– and low pass filters, peak filters, delays and phase inversion can be applied to the subwoofer output." Is this what you mean by promises? Just curious.
Yes, that’s the screenshot I posted. If he manual states this, but software implementation is not ready (?), it’s misleading to say the least.

Then again, these things can happen in software, but there’s still no fix years later. The menu options to set the subwoofer output setting are simply nowhere to be found in the menu.
 

youngho

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Yes, if the manual states this, but software implementation is not ready (?), it’s misleading to say the least.

Then again, these things can happen in software, but there’s still no fix years later.
Ah, I'm not sure that it was meant to be interpreted in the way that you did (take, for example, the sentence "salt can be added to the dish"), and even if so, it wouldn't take the load off the 8 inch driver if it's only the subwoofer output that has filters applied.
 

abdo123

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Yes, that’s the screenshot I posted. If he manual states this, but software implementation is not ready (?), it’s misleading to say the least.

Then again, these things can happen in software, but there’s still no fix years later. The menu options to set the subwoofer output setting are simply nowhere to be found in the menu.

Did you contact them about this?
 

Puddingbuks

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Ah, I'm not sure that it was meant to be interpreted in the way that you did (take, for example, the sentence "salt can be added to the dish"), and even if so, it wouldn't take the load off the 8 inch driver if it's only the subwoofer output that has filters applied.
The manual talks about low and high pass filters. Like the kef wireless, high pass on the kef, low pass to the subwoofer output.
 

youngho

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The manual talks about low and high pass filters. Like the kef wireless, high pass on the kef, low pass to the subwoofer output.
Yes, or else high- and low-pass filters can be applied to the full-range subwoofer output so that it's reproducing the appropriate range for the subwoofer itself, which may require a high-pass filter in order to avoid damage, like during the Edge of Tomorrow intro, haha. Sorry I missed your screenshot. The version of the manual I found was 0.4, which implied to me that it was a draft or preliminary version. The most recent 8C manual (2.1?) simply states "The sub output has no standard pre-set filters; it can also be used as a fullrange filtered output for other applications than a subwoofer."
 

Puddingbuks

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It seems to me they skipped some options to make sure the 8c was easy to operate. When they dropped the 8m, there probably was less need for a sub with the 8c.

I can use the analog out on my Node 2i and subwoofer out to “split” the signal between 8m and subwoofer. But then this is complete analog and with the internal (not so good?) dac of the node. And I wonder how I can use REW with the 8m + sub, because REW directly controls the 8c and filters.

Another way is a minidsp shd studio. Fully digital in and out and then I can use dirac and forget about REW.

Strange still for such a simple dsp implementation as a configurable sub out.
 

HammerSandwich

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It strikes me looking at the nearfield response that this could be a great 'bookshelf' even with just he mid/high, without the rear low frequency.
<snip>
I'm mostly excited to see this tech trickle down to some speakers I can realistically afford!
If the goal is to control directivity another 1-2 octaves with minimal extra expense, you don't want a cardioid. You want a big baffle.

As a convenient example, compare @hardisj's normalized maps for the 8c & HTM-12v2. They're quite similar above 500Hz, because the HTM is 50cm wide & both have good waveguides. Since it's DIY, use a larger baffle & EQ the lower midrange back to flat. Or put an HTM on an on-wall bookshelf, surrounded by actual books, for a cheap soffit mount. (With the added bonus of annoying "true" audiophiles...) There are some practical difficulties with option 2, such as getting the listening axis correct for the waveguide, but the 100-500Hz range will be very, very good.
 

ooheadsoo

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It seems to me they skipped some options to make sure the 8c was easy to operate. When they dropped the 8m, there probably was less need for a sub with the 8c.

I can use the analog out on my Node 2i and subwoofer out to “split” the signal between 8m and subwoofer. But then this is complete analog and with the internal (not so good?) dac of the node. And I wonder how I can use REW with the 8m + sub, because REW directly controls the 8c and filters.

Another way is a minidsp shd studio. Fully digital in and out and then I can use dirac and forget about REW.

Strange still for such a simple dsp implementation as a configurable sub out.
Is that the only mention of it in the manual? If so, I don't think it means what you think it means. I don't think there is a substantive implication that any of those dsp techniques will be applied upstream of the output. Maybe they put it there as a hedge, but it really doesn't promise anything.
 

youngho

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It seems to me they skipped some options to make sure the 8c was easy to operate. When they dropped the 8m, there probably was less need for a sub with the 8c.

I can use the analog out on my Node 2i and subwoofer out to “split” the signal between 8m and subwoofer. But then this is complete analog and with the internal (not so good?) dac of the node. And I wonder how I can use REW with the 8m + sub, because REW directly controls the 8c and filters.

Another way is a minidsp shd studio. Fully digital in and out and then I can use dirac and forget about REW.

Strange still for such a simple dsp implementation as a configurable sub out.

I'm not a tech guy, so I can't say anything meaningful here, other than that sometimes things that seem like they should be simple aren't. I own the Harman Kardon HK990 integrated amplifier. The room correction was never implemented properly (can see here), and although there is the ability to update the firmware, Harman never did so. Strange for such a relatively simple implementation and ability to upgrade, and we're talking about a major corporation like Harman. It's still a great amplifier, nonetheless.

I use the SHD for my Epique CBT24 + dual Rythmik L22 subwoofer setup. It also allows you to add REW filters if you so choose, on top of Dirac.

Again, I believe that there may be a language issue here, not a promise per se.
 

phoenixdogfan

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Wouldn't it just be shallower? Can't get much narrower or shorter.

The Gradient 1.4 is another passive cardioid design, as is the midrange unit of the Gradient Helsinki 1.5.
Be interesting to see someone in the US do a 2034 spin and review of the 1.4. It's 5,600 Euros which is quite a bit more affordable than the D&Ds or the Kii's.
 

Schönramer

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Last weekend I had the chance to listen to the Dutch & Dutch 8c at a local dealer (I am thinking about selling all my loudspeaker, amplifier, cables, SACD player and other stuff to buy the 8c because of the interesting package, DSP and the positive reviews). We listened to the loudspeaker in three different settings and one setting was far better than everything else:

Test track: Wagner from Qobuz in 24 Bit / 48 kHz and as normal CD in 16 Bit / 44.1 kHz

  1. Qobuz stream from iPhone 12 (5G connection) connected with Lightning to USB adaptor into the dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric mono DACs. Then to the 8c using XLR connection --> was good.
  2. From dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric CD player using analog XLR outs to the dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric mono DACs. Then to the 8c using XLR connection --> was better than Qobuz stream.
  3. Purely digital” (according to the dealer): From dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric CD player using digital AES outs directly into the 8c. So the 8c was using its own DAC’s. The result was one of the best performance I ever heard.

Compared to the other two setups the dynamic range was much higher and the flow of music was far better with more details and better sound stage. It is hard to describe but also the two other guys who where present besides the dealer and me clearly stated that this performance was by far the best.


To me it is an very interesting point because if I will decide for the 8c I want the best possible performance. Can anyone explain the technical background of why the result was (subjectively) so different? Especially why was the stream from Qobuz APP (in 24 Bit / 48 kHz) not better? The only thing that comes to my mind is the double conversion of the first two settings (digital from Qobuz / CD player to DAC and then analogue into the 8c with another round of converting in their internal DACs). But can this make such a big difference?

What I am thinking now is to purchase a network-bridge / streaming transport so that I feed the 8C with digital AES connection out to keep the “purely digital” path. It is hard to find some appropriate device that has AES output. What I read here in the forum (in terms of recommendation) is:
  • Metrum Ambre
  • Sonnet Hermes
  • Lumin U1 Mini
  • MiniDSP SHD Studio

So I have three questions:
  1. Has anybody experienced something similar and can explain the background?
  2. In order to get the best performance out of the 8c am I on the right track to play it as “digital” as possible? Can you recommend one of the above mentioned bridges or something else?
  3. Is it best to wait till the 8c's are ROON ready and let ROON and the 8c do the streaming?

Thanks for your support!
 
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nerdoldnerdith

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Last weekend I had the chance to listen to the Dutch & Dutch 8c at a local dealer (I am thinking about selling all my loudspeaker, amplifier, cables, SACD player and other stuff to buy the 8c because of the interesting package, DSP and the positive reviews). We listened to the loudspeaker in three different settings and one setting was far better than everything else:

Test track: Wagner from Qobuz in 24 Bit / 48 kHz and as normal CD in 16 Bit / 44.1 kHz

  1. Qobuz stream from iPhone 12 (5G connection) connected with Lightning to USB adaptor in the dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric mono DACs. Then to the 8c using XLR connection à was good.
  2. From dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric CD player using analog XLR outs to the dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric mono DACs. Then to the 8c using XLR connection à was better than Qobuz stream.
  3. Purely digital” according to the dealer: From dealers ridiculous expensive esoteric CD player using digital AES outs directly into the 8c. So the 8c was using its own DAC’s. The result was one of the best performance I ever heard.

Compared to the other two setups the dynamic range was much higher and the flow of music was far better with more details and better sound stage. It is hard to describe but also the two other guys who where present besides the dealer and me clearly stated that this performance was by far the best.


To me it is an very interesting point because if I will decide for the 8c I want the best possible performance. Can anyone explain the technical background of why the result was so different? Especially why was the stream from Qobuz APP (in 24 Bit / 48 kHz) not better?. The only thing that comes to my mind is the double conversion of the first two settings (digital from Qobuz / CD player to DAC and then analogue into the 8c with another round of converting in their internal DACs). But can this make such a big difference?

What I am thinking now is to purchase a network-bridge / streaming transport so that I feed the 8C from an digital AES out to keep the “purely digital” path. It is hard to find some appropriate that has AES output. What I read here in the forum is:
  • Metrum Ambre
  • Sonnet Hermes
  • Lumin U1 Mini
  • MiniDSP SHD Studio

So I have three questions:
  1. Has anybody experienced something similar and can explain the background?
  2. In order to get the best performance out of the 8C am I on the right track to play it as “digital” as possible? Can you recommend one of the above mentioned bridges or something else?
  3. Is it best to wait till the 8c are ROON ready and let ROON and the 8c do the streaming?

Thanks for your support!
If the dealer's ridiculously expensive electronics were coloring the sound in a way you like by adding "euphonic" distortion then that may have positively influenced your perception. However, just by listening to the same thing multiple times and expecting a difference you are likely to hear some kind of difference whether it's there or not, simply by listening to details in the sound you didn't notice previously.

I listen to my 8C's using analog XLR outputs from my DAC and headphone amplifier and I have no complaints about the sound even though there is one more level of digital to analog conversion than necessary.

If you want digital but don't want to spend big money on an interface with AES out you can use SPDIF and an impedence transformer.
 

Schönramer

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If the dealer's ridiculously expensive electronics were coloring the sound in a way you like by adding "euphonic" distortion then that may have positively influenced your perception. However, just by listening to the same thing multiple times and expecting a difference you are likely to hear some kind of difference whether it's there or not, simply by listening to details in the sound you didn't notice previously.

I listen to my 8C's using analog XLR outputs from my DAC and headphone amplifier and I have no complaints about the sound even though there is one more level of digital to analog conversion than necessary.

If you want digital but don't want to spend big money on an interface with AES out you can use SPDIF and an impedence transformer.
that's an interesting point but I would assume that according to your explanation ("ridiculously expensive electronics were coloring the sound") it should make me feel that setting 1 must be best because: 24 bit / 48 kHz AND the ridiculously expensive electronics behind.

BUT the setting 3 which might has the lowest "ridiculously expensive electronics" influence was the best. Because the CD-Player just sent out the digital stream without internal analoge conversion and also the "super" DACs were not in the signal path.

So I cannot follow your argumentation regarding sound coloring. The "leanest" setup was the best and it was coming from 16 bit / 44.1 kHz and not from 24 bit / 48 kHz.
 
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TabCam

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I have listened to the Dutch&Dutch 8c on multiple occasions and have had them for a home listening demo session, about three weeks. In the first session there was a small but noticeable difference between the analog and digital but in the second demo session there was a vey big difference.

At home the analog/digital difference was quite big but didn't perform a volume matched testing. In my situation I used the analog input for my AVR to integrate the D&D 8c in my HT setup. Caveat is that I suspect the demo pair that was provided by the dealer of the second demo session as it was not as good as the first pair I heard.

I did not investigate further as there were other problems that would inhibit a purchase. That problem was/is both the single analog input and it shares the same connector for digital too so both is not possible without physical switching. You can use Roon for digital via network but than you cannot use streaming services that Roon does not support. I found both the volume control, single input and difficult HT integration too limiting.
 
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