Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[FrantzM]

Guilty! Three subs in fact. The two flanking the 8c's and one to the left of the MLP in the tail of my L shaped room (positioned equidistant between MLP and 8c's).

View attachment 118183



A lot of ifs and buts here I think, such as the capabilities of the subs (freq & transient response at higher xover freq) and what you are trying to accomplish by using subs?

I use the subs because they were already there and optimised for the room, however I do believe there are some advantages to using them in my situation instead of the 8C's on their own.

-The 8c's are high passed at 120hz, which quite noticeably improves their headroom. 120hz is the limit for my flanking subs before they start to sound clumsy. I've ordered a pair of @sigbergaudio subs which are tuned flat to 200hz, so it will be interesting experimenting at say 150hz if they ever arrive.
-Each sub is running in mono (both L&R channels enabled in the DSP). This produces (in my subjective opinion) smoother bass and greater timbral accuracy compared to running them in stereo, without sacrificing stereo imaging.
-The flanking subs being on the floor and against the front wall eliminates any SBIR issues, though ditto the 8c's boundary filters.
-The third sub in the L to the left of the MLP helps smooth the response before eq is applied.
-The overall sound is bigger, more enveloping and effortless than the 8c's on their own. I suspect I loose some bass output having them two feet from the front wall and in fairness to the 8c's I haven't spent much time optimising them running solo. Having the subs outside the 8c's widens the sound stage and whilst theoretically 4x8" drivers should move as much air as two 12" drivers, the bigger drivers just seem to produce more impact.

As always, YMMV of course.

I like your thinking and system. Care to tell us more about the subwoofers integration process and particulars?

 

[muslhead]

Guilty! Three subs in fact. The two flanking the 8c's and one to the left of the MLP in the tail of my L shaped room (positioned equidistant between MLP and 8c's).

View attachment 118183



A lot of ifs and buts here I think, such as the capabilities of the subs (freq & transient response at higher xover freq) and what you are trying to accomplish by using subs?

I use the subs because they were already there and optimised for the room, however I do believe there are some advantages to using them in my situation instead of the 8C's on their own.

-The 8c's are high passed at 120hz, which quite noticeably improves their headroom. 120hz is the limit for my flanking subs before they start to sound clumsy. I've ordered a pair of @sigbergaudio subs which are tuned flat to 200hz, so it will be interesting experimenting at say 150hz if they ever arrive.
-Each sub is running in mono (both L&R channels enabled in the DSP). This produces (in my subjective opinion) smoother bass and greater timbral accuracy compared to running them in stereo, without sacrificing stereo imaging.
-The flanking subs being on the floor and against the front wall eliminates any SBIR issues, though ditto the 8c's boundary filters.
-The third sub in the L to the left of the MLP helps smooth the response before eq is applied.
-The overall sound is bigger, more enveloping and effortless than the 8c's on their own. I suspect I loose some bass output having them two feet from the front wall and in fairness to the 8c's I haven't spent much time optimising them running solo. Having the subs outside the 8c's widens the sound stage and whilst theoretically 4x8" drivers should move as much air as two 12" drivers, the bigger drivers just seem to produce more impact.

As always, YMMV of course.

Excellent explanation. Thanks. Gives me hope i can do something similar.

 

[buz]

We shouldn't exclude bias of course, but as those Kiis in the comparison were mine I would think I would be biased the other way.

Once me and my friend heard Kii BXT (different year, different room) on some of that symphonic metal stuff he's into on realistic spls, we were sold.
View attachment 117953

I cant help it, but the Kii 3 on the BXT just looks wicked cool, somehow almost menacing. And symphonic metal *droool*. Not sure I am quite prepared to pay the price though.

 

[DNM]

I like your thinking and system. Care to tell us more about the subwoofers integration process and particulars?

Thanks. Subs are just sealed BK DF's with the Peerless XXLS paper cone drivers, integration using MiniDSP SHD, xovers LR4 at 120hz, one Sub Eq filter at 50hz on the right sub. No Dirac.

I have to run the 8c's in low latency mode as the SHD has a max delay of 30ms and wasn't able to phase align them in linear phase mode without the subs being a cycle behind the 8c's.

The SHD only has 4 channels so I use the balanced outs for the flanking subs with passive balanced to single ended converters and the left channel RCA for the third sub. I obviously can't precisely time align the third sub but the distance is only slightly more to the MLP. The third sub is same polarity but lower output. Tried running it 180deg out of phase with the others using its on board filter but it just cancelled the left sub. It seems that by virtue of having a bass point source from another direction helps disrupt some of the adverse modal behaviour at the MLP.

If I didn't have a CDP and record player, I would probably do it all in a computer with something like an Octo Dac 8, although the SHD's software and ability to control it wirelessly on the fly is a boon. It just needs more channels.

Its worth noting at 120hz xover the 8c's subs are still putting out a reasonable amount of bass as there's no way to disable them. Having the additional bass point source may or may not improve things, however I've never achieved good results with 8c's running full range together with the subs, no matter how they were sliced and diced.

When the Siggy's arrive, I'll need to re measure everything and interested to see if wall mounting them slightly higher has any appreciable benefit. I'll be happy to post finding and measurements as and when.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I cant help it, but the Kii 3 on the BXT just looks wicked cool, somehow almost menacing. And symphonic metal *droool*. Not sure I am quite prepared to pay the price though.

How's this for menacing?

 

[DNM]

I was going to ask why you have them out from the wall that far, but you explained it. I am not sure what the optimum distance is. Plus, I wonder if the fireplace would interfere with the slots on the side.

I dont think so, I've set the boundary filters equivalent to the distance to the fireplace. The level of detail is quite beguiling.

 

[muslhead]

View attachment 118240
How's this for menacing?

R2D2's cousin?

 

[Puddingbuks]

Thanks. Subs are just sealed BK DF's with the Peerless XXLS paper cone drivers, integration using MiniDSP SHD, xovers LR4 at 120hz, one Sub Eq filter at 50hz on the right sub. No Dirac.

Its worth noting at 120hz xover the 8c's subs are still putting out a reasonable amount of bass as there's no way to disable them. Having the additional bass point source may or may not improve things, however I've never achieved good results with 8c's running full range together with the subs, no matter how they were sliced and diced.

It's strange that the 8c can't set a crossover for the sub out.

 

[q3cpma]

View attachment 118240
How's this for menacing?

To be honest, I find the front cone of the W371A very cool, with its steep angle.

 

[Ericglo]

View attachment 118240
How's this for menacing?

R2D2's cousin?

I've never seen such devotion in a Genelec droid.

 

[buz]

To be honest, I find the front cone of the W371A very cool, with its steep angle.

I find the whole thing way too boxy, very much clashing with the organic shape of the monitors...

Somehow the bxt reminds me of a rocket launcher, think katjuscha turned vertical...

 

[DNM]

It's strange that the 8c can't set a crossover for the sub out.

I don't know the reasons why not, firmware challenges, other priorities, DSP limitations, who knows.

If the "unmentionable" new thing is a Kii BXT type sub array that uses the existing 'sub out', then factory configured phase aligned xover filters at a higher frequency will be advantageous. Whether it would be user configurable for use with other subs is another matter.

 

[muslhead]

I've never seen such devotion in a Genelec droid.

I have found the Genelec and Neumann fanbois here quite .... uhhhm never mind the forum monitor overlord will ban me

 

[Pearljam5000]

I have found the Genelec and Neumann fanbois here quite .... uhhhm never mind the forum monitor overlord will ban me

I'm unashamed about my Genelec fanboyism.

 

[Zedly]

R2D2's cousin?

More like

 

[muslhead]

More like

not the same. this is only a two way, without constant directivity cant be compared at all. jeesh

 

[Cadguy]

@DNM you say that with subs the D&D 8s sound bigger, more enveloping and effortless with subs. My room is 18 feet by 30 feet, would you say that the 8C s without subs might not be large enough for a bigger room like mine?

 

[Purité Audio]

That is the exact size of one of our rooms, I do not believe you will need subs, at least not used constructively.
Keith

 

[DNM]

@DNM you say that with subs the D&D 8s sound bigger, more enveloping and effortless with subs. My room is 18 feet by 30 feet, would you say that the 8C s without subs might not be large enough for a bigger room like mine?

Sorry, I genuinely couldn't answer that.

Listening position relative to the speakers matters as does the 8c's placement. The D&D's rely on front wall boundary re-enforcement for maximum bass output (40cm or less iirc) which adds 6db of bass output. Thats a lot of energy at bass frequencies but not an option for me.

All said and done, they go plenty loud and sound like much bigger speakers than they are. The likes of @mitchco has compared them with his big JBL's with subs, albeit with a mid field listening window, and said they don't disgrace themselves.

Comparing the D&D's running solo in stereo with an unconventional setup like mine where three subs are running in mono (plus partial stereo output from the D&D's subs), isn't really a fair comparison of the D&D's versus other stereo speakers. With multiple subs configured to output both channels, you are increasing the bass point sources in the room, which helps smooth adverse modal behaviour and gives you the "enveloping" sensation, especially with recordings where bass is mixed down to low frequencies in stereo. I personally could no longer have a system without multiple subs, no matter how large the main speakers. The devil is in the integration however, which can be a bit of a pita.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Thats a lot of energy at bass frequencies but not an option for me.

Is this because you couldn't position the 8c optimally for bass?
I noticed in your earlier post you are crossing over the D&Ds at 120Hz which means their bass drivers and the boundary re-enforcement are not being used at all in your configuration.