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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

Frank Dernie

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The 8c's are high passed at 120hz, which quite noticeably improves their headroom
This is surprising since the mid driver goes down to 100Hz and below that the 2 bass drivers take over.
Crossing over at 120Hz hardly effects the headroom of the mid driver and the bass drivers aren't getting used anyway.
 

DNM

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This is surprising since the mid driver goes down to 100Hz and below that the 2 bass drivers take over.
Crossing over at 120Hz hardly effects the headroom of the mid driver and the bass drivers aren't getting used anyway.

OK, headroom is the wrong term and I didn't mean to attribute any perceived improvement in performance solely due to high passing the 8c's at 120hz. Attenuating the mid driver by -4db at 100hz may or my not improve performance but I appreciate this is an evidence based forum where subjective conjecture is quite rightly given short shrift, and Erins measurements clearly show they perform well and the distortion, whilst high at 100hz, isn't perceptible to him.

What I perceive is a more dynamic and open sound when crossing them to subs, which could simply be down to the smoother bass response I'm able to achieve in my tricky room using multi subs. I'm sure if I spent time eq'ing the 8c's or use the REW calibration feature, I could improve them significantly without subs, but my experience with other speakers and room correction hasn't been as successful so I've never bothered to try.
 

sigbergaudio

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OK, headroom is the wrong term and I didn't mean to attribute any perceived improvement in performance solely due to high passing the 8c's at 120hz. Attenuating the mid driver by -4db at 100hz may or my not improve performance but I appreciate this is an evidence based forum where subjective conjecture is quite rightly given short shrift, and Erins measurements clearly show they perform well and the distortion, whilst high at 100hz, isn't perceptible to him.

What I perceive is a more dynamic and open sound when crossing them to subs, which could simply be down to the smoother bass response I'm able to achieve in my tricky room using multi subs. I'm sure if I spent time eq'ing the 8c's or use the REW calibration feature, I could improve them significantly without subs, but my experience with other speakers and room correction hasn't been as successful so I've never bothered to try.

Smoother and possibly more extended bass response is often perceived as better soundstage and sense of "room" or space, in part due to the fact that the low end often contain ambience information, so it could be simply due to the subs adding to the total experience.

And if you have subwoofers that are more capable than the 8C are alone, you would in fact get improved headroom from 120hz and down, which may well give an overall impression of general increased headroom.
 

DNM

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Is this because you couldn't position the 8c optimally for bass?
I noticed in your earlier post you are crossing over the D&Ds at 120Hz which means their bass drivers and the boundary re-enforcement are not being used at all in your configuration.

They are placed far enough away from the front wall so the vents are just beyond the side walls of the fireplace with the DSP set to 70cm, so they do not get maximum boundary re-enforcement when running full range, but that's not the reason I prefer to use them with multi-subs and high pass filter, which I fully understand is attenuating the 8c's bass drivers.

It's entirely down to being able to achieve better bass performance in a difficult L shaped room using subs and not having found a satisfactory configuration when I run the 8c's full range and try to blend them with subs. It does seem a waste to me not to use them full range, but hey ho.
 

Puddingbuks

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Anyone tried if the 8c benefits from AC noise filtering / power conditioners / cables / etc. ?

:)
 

Frank Dernie

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Anyone tried if the 8c benefits from AC noise filtering / power conditioners / cables / etc. ?

:)
:)
PMFJI but since their general engineering is excellent I would think they have avoided the obvious mistake of making a product designed to be mains powered but which does not work properly when plugged into the mains.
IMO any hifi equipment requiring any of these indicates incometent engineering and should be avoided.
 

Puddingbuks

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I recently heard subtle differences in a set of a friend of mine. With or without filter/separate audio group. No 8c's by the way, and no huge difference, but I'm just curious.
 

BDWoody

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Anyone tried if the 8c benefits from AC noise filtering / power conditioners / cables / etc. ?

:)

Unfortunately, I'll bet most who try them will describe a clear improvement. I'll also bet the reports of all the 'veils being lifted' from that nonsense aren't based on controlled tests.
 

Frank Dernie

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I recently heard subtle differences in a set of a friend of mine. With or without filter/separate audio group. No 8c's by the way, and no huge difference, but I'm just curious.
If real, rather than imagined, I would avoid anything made by the manufacturer of the electronics in the system in question, which I realise you wrote were not 8C.
 

HairyEars

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My curiosity piqued, and having $20,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I drove 200km back and forth to demo the D&D for two short hours.

First off, as opposed to claims being made here, the 8c is not a 3-way, rather a 2-way fitted with a pair of subwoofers at the back. A 3-way is usually crossed between 400hz and 500hz. The 8c front woofer is crossed at a 100hz, mimicking a typical 2-way with an outboard subwoofer. The size of the woofer alone is a clue enough it meant to reach rather low.

My point of reference to the audition was my home-based Genelec 1032c x 2 + 7360 x 2, also blessed with advance DSP, but no cardioid dispersion, and the enclosure is ported. One advantage my Genelec setup possesses is better LF control, due to a pair of subwoofer I can deploy at my discretion. Truth be told, the 1032c doesn’t measure as well as my 8341A, but it’s considerably more pleasant to my ears—that warm, creamy Genelec signature that enticed me so many years ago to purchase a pair of 1030A. I use it strictly for music enjoyment.

Onward to the demo:
The room was treated acoustically, but in the wrong spots, so de-facto no treatment. The speakers were set too far apart and some clutter between them prevented good stereo imaging; 120cm from the front wall, which is not optimal. Nevertheless, I’ve never heard a speaker that so successfully decoupled itself from room influences. The cardioid design and the waveguide truly came to bear. Of course, the 8c are still affected by their environment, so better off not skimping there.

In terms of sound, there was no “Whoa” moment; no falling in love. Subjectively speaking, the sound was neutral and balanced, quite clear with decent separation. It was certainly superior to my 8341A in the LF department, but the coax driver leaves the 8c in the dust in higher frequencies. Still, I found the sound artificial, and even strange to some extent. At times, I applauded it, but it always felt off, not really organic. All in all, the speakers were not fulfilling, nor inducing me to consider a purchase. The price tag itself didn’t commensurate with what my ear perceived.

To me, my 1032C setup blows the 8c out of the water, with a beguiling sound that even 18 months after purchase still puts a grin on my face. Granted, the rooms are unlike, and the subwoofers make a noticeable difference; furthermore, my 1032c are placed far away from the front wall, which mitigates rear wall cancellations. My source is also finer, being pure AES down from the streamer.

In summation: only if one cannot treat their environment should one consider the 8c.

P.S.1:
Kudos for the 8c construction standards. It’s been discussed here at length, so I won’t heap more words.

P.S.2:
Despite my deep respect for D&D’s technological prowess, I think the enterprise is wasteful with its resource allocation. Case in point, instead of developing essential features like a control unit and proper bass management vis-à-vis subwoofer output, the company fritters its efforts away on Roon readiness (you can read about it on their website). What for? Why is it so important? I can connect any decent streamer to their speakers and instantly get Roon going; the same can’t be said for the missing features.
 
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Pearljam5000

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My curiosity piqued, and having $20,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I drove 200km back and forth to demo the D&D for two short hours.

First off, as opposed to claims being made here, the 8c is not a 3-way, rather a 2-way fitted with a pair of subwoofers at the back. A 3-way is usually crossed between 400hz and 500hz. The 8c front woofer, on the other hand, is crossed at a 100hz, mimicking a typical 2-way with an outboard subwoofer. The size of the woofer alone should give a clue it meant to reach rather low.

My point of reference to the audition was my home-based Genelec 1032c x 2 + 7360 x 2, also blessed with advance DSP, but no cardioid dispersion, and the enclosure is ported. One advantage my Genelec setup possesses is better LF control, deploying two subwoofers that I can position anywhere. Truth be told, the 1032c doesn’t measure as well as my 8341A, but it’s considerably more pleasant to my ears—that warm, creamy Genelec signature that enticed me so many years ago to purchase a pair of 1030A. I use it strictly for music enjoyment

Onward to the demo:
The room was treated acoustically, but in the wrong spots, so de-facto no treatment. The speakers were set too far apart and some clutter between them prevented good stereo imaging; 120cm from the front wall, which is not optimal. Nevertheless, I’ve never heard a speaker that so successfully decoupled itself from room influences. The cardioid design and the waveguide truly came to bear. Of course, the 8c are still affected by their environment, so better off not skipping there.

In terms of sound, there was no “Whoa” effect; no falling in love. Subjectively speaking, the sound was neutral and balanced, quite clear with decent separation. It was certainly superior to my 8341A in the LF department, but the coax driver leaves the 8c in the dust in higher frequencies. Still, I found the sound artificial, and even strange to some extent. At times, I applauded it, but it always felt off, not organic. It was certainly not fulfilling nor inducing me to consider a purchase. The price tag itself didn’t commensurate with what my ear perceived.

To me, my 1032C setup blows the 8c out of the water, with a beguiling sound that even 18 months after purchase still puts a grin on my face. Granted, the rooms are unlike, and the subwoofers make a noticeable difference. Furthermore, my 1032c are placed far away from the front wall, which mitigates rear wall cancellations. My source is also finer and doesn’t require multiple conversions (pure AES down from the streamer).

In summation, I’d say that only if one cannot treat their environment should one consider the 8c.

P.S.1:
Kudos for the 8c construction standards. It’s been discussed in this thread so I won’t heap more words.

P.S.2:
Despite my deep respect for D&D’s technological prowess, I think the enterprise is wasteful with regard to its resource allocation. Case in point, instead of developing essential features like a control unit and proper bass management vis-à-vis subwoofer output, the company fritters its efforts away on Roon readiness (you can read about it on their website). What for? Why is it so important? I can connect any decent streamer to their speakers and instantly get Roon going; the same can’t be said about the missing features.
After experiencing some Genelec clarity and tonality it's hard listening to other speakers, they sound kind of "off" and colored.
 

Purité Audio

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Disappointing to travel so far and then not be wowed, I firmly believe speakers have to be compared in your own space.
Perhaps it’s time that manufacturers removed retailers completely, ship directly to the customers home, set-up and measurement remotely, REW sends any filters directly to the 8Cs.
Keith
 

Purité Audio

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Not genuine; not a close enough replica of the sound you’d expect.
Think a trumpet/clarinet duet, for example, generated by a clunky computer software.

The phenomenon was most salient with electronic music.
Uh-huh
Electronic music is sort of artificial, the clue is in the name.
Keith
 
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