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Dr. Floyd Toole' system - with pictures

oivavoi

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You earlier cited Putzeys, Linkwitz and Toole as being against full range EQ. Yes, they are all really smart guys, but note that they are all in the speaker business. So, I tend to think they would all prefer to solve the problem at the speaker, which they all have worked very hard at doing. Pride in their own work with speakers might bias them that way. That might even be the best way, the ideal way above transition. But, we do not all have speakers that necessarily meet the ideal.

Good point. It's a strange thing, isn't it... People who make speakers claim that the speakers are the most important thing to correct, people who sell acoustic products claim that the room is the most important thing to correct... financial interests have a way of shaping our minds.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Good point. It's a strange thing, isn't it... People who make speakers claim that the speakers are the most important thing to correct, people who sell acoustic products claim that the room is the most important thing to correct... financial interests have a way of shaping our minds.
I do not think it is financial at all. They are working in those specialized fields in the first place for other, non-financial reasons, especially those 3 guys. But, people tend to see things in terms of their own specialty, especially if they have labored there for years.
 

Cosmik

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But I think that they are working it out logically based on the common experience of moving around different rooms and never noticing any change in people's voices or the sound of musical instruments. The ambience of the room is a separate thing.

Of course an audiophile can play with a graphic equaliser and the novelty of certain settings will sound 'better' for a while, suddenly providing more detail on the violins they never noticed before etc. but eventually they will go back to 'flat' again. This would be just the same with other processes such as 'Audio Spatializer' or 'Super Stereo' that sound like "Wow!" for a while, but are soon turned off.
 

amirm

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If I could pick up on this, DonH... what are the technical advantages with monoblocks? The only one that springs to my mind is 100% channel separation.
A lot of stereo amps also have shared power supplies. This causes the voltage rail to modulate the other amp at the peak.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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But I think that they are working it out logically based on the common experience of moving around different rooms and never noticing any change in people's voices or the sound of musical instruments. The ambience of the room is a separate thing.

Of course an audiophile can play with a graphic equaliser and the novelty of certain settings will sound 'better' for a while, suddenly providing more detail on the violins they never noticed before etc. but eventually they will go back to 'flat' again. This would be just the same with other processes such as 'Audio Spatializer' or 'Super Stereo' that sound like "Wow!" for a while, but are soon turned off.

Here are my own very unscientific ramblings. I guess I am not finding that experience to be true for myself: moving around the room and hearing no change in the sound of voices or instruments. I realize we are still talking above transition frequency. There would definitely be change at different locations below transition.

I also find there to be differences in tonality in different seats at live concerts, sometimes quite noticeable ones. Some of that is hall reflection, some is due to unique, non symetric and frequency dependent wave launch patterns of the direct sound from different instruments.

Or, do I think I am hearing a tonal change from speakers in a room or concert hall when only the spatial presentation has changed as I move around?

So, I think good speakers and the controlled speaker directivity thing are very positive, but I do not think they completely prevent tonal shifts at different positions around the room above transition. I think they can help to reduce, though not eliminate, the tonal effects of reflections, though. Also, reflections can still have time or image smearing contributions beyond tonality.

However, I think even with good speakers designed to the best dispersion principles, the sound above transition can still be brighter or duller in different rooms or at different locations in those rooms. I do think our brains can get used to the differing acoustic and compensate to a degree unconsciously. But, listening is more pleasurable if our brains don't need to do as much of that.
 

DonH56

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If I could pick up on this, DonH... what are the technical advantages with monoblocks? The only one that springs to my mind is 100% channel separation.

Sorry, missed this... Not really the right thread for it, but Amir has already provided some info. I had a long post someplace on WBF but rarely visit there these days. There are some advantages to monoblocks but of course implementation is a huge player in the benefits you might actually receive (and hear). Below are some quick off-the-cuff comments. Note these are somewhat subjective because they depend upon how manufacturers implement the designs.

Pros:
  1. Completely independent chassis so any signal crosstalk is likely not between amplifier channels.
  2. Generally bigger power supplies with more charge storage so may offer greater long-term dynamic headroom.
  3. No voltage modulation (crosstalk) between channel power supplies. A big signal in one channel dragging down the rails does not affect the other channel.
  4. Easier thermal management with independent heat sinks and such, and monoblocks often have more room for cooling since only one channel is in each box.
  5. Facilitates placement near speakers using very short speaker cables (and thus longer interconnect cables). The speaker side is usually much more sensitive to cable interactions (amp out impedances are low, but speakers can be rather nasty loads).
  6. Monoblocks tend to utilize the best of manufacturer's components and design concepts since they are usually only sold to higher-end customers. How audible that may be varies widely (for the most part I'd guess not much but YMMV).
  7. They look cool and you can tell all your friends how dedicated you are.
Cons:
  1. No sharing of power supplies generally means greater overall SWAP (size, weight, and power) and greater heat dissipation.
  2. Can still have crosstalk at the source or through the power lines (not a really a con, more just a comment, and not likely IME/IMO).
  3. Need added space for the amplifiers, natch, and space around them for cooling, additional power outlets, etc. May need a platform behind the speakers (I would not place an amp on the floor, carpeted or not, due to risk of additional dust from floor and heat build-up especially if on carpet).
  4. Potential for ground loops if they are placed on different outlets from each other and/or the preamp, or from the longer/extra interconnects and power safety ground connections.
  5. Longer interconnects (if required) may be more susceptible to picking up hum and noise (usually not a problem, just get a decent -- NOT expensive -- cable, and route appropriately).
  6. Higher cost (extra power supplies, chassis cost $$$ -- and IMO since they are on the upper end of most lines manufacturers can exact a premium).
  7. Lower WAF.
Next I suppose we'll have to discuss vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping... ;)

HTH - Don
 

oivavoi

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Sorry, missed this... Not really the right thread for it, but Amir has already provided some info. I had a long post someplace on WBF but rarely visit there these days. There are some advantages to monoblocks but of course implementation is a huge player in the benefits you might actually receive (and hear). Below are some quick off-the-cuff comments. Note these are somewhat subjective because they depend upon how manufacturers implement the designs.

Pros:
  1. Completely independent chassis so any signal crosstalk is likely not between amplifier channels.
  2. Generally bigger power supplies with more charge storage so may offer greater long-term dynamic headroom.
  3. No voltage modulation (crosstalk) between channel power supplies. A big signal in one channel dragging down the rails does not affect the other channel.
  4. Easier thermal management with independent heat sinks and such, and monoblocks often have more room for cooling since only one channel is in each box.
  5. Facilitates placement near speakers using very short speaker cables (and thus longer interconnect cables). The speaker side is usually much more sensitive to cable interactions (amp out impedances are low, but speakers can be rather nasty loads).
  6. Monoblocks tend to utilize the best of manufacturer's components and design concepts since they are usually only sold to higher-end customers. How audible that may be varies widely (for the most part I'd guess not much but YMMV).
  7. They look cool and you can tell all your friends how dedicated you are.
Cons:
  1. No sharing of power supplies generally means greater overall SWAP (size, weight, and power) and greater heat dissipation.
  2. Can still have crosstalk at the source or through the power lines (not a really a con, more just a comment, and not likely IME/IMO).
  3. Need added space for the amplifiers, natch, and space around them for cooling, additional power outlets, etc. May need a platform behind the speakers (I would not place an amp on the floor, carpeted or not, due to risk of additional dust from floor and heat build-up especially if on carpet).
  4. Potential for ground loops if they are placed on different outlets from each other and/or the preamp, or from the longer/extra interconnects and power safety ground connections.
  5. Longer interconnects (if required) may be more susceptible to picking up hum and noise (usually not a problem, just get a decent -- NOT expensive -- cable, and route appropriately).
  6. Higher cost (extra power supplies, chassis cost $$$ -- and IMO since they are on the upper end of most lines manufacturers can exact a premium).
  7. Lower WAF.
Next I suppose we'll have to discuss vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping... ;)

HTH - Don

Thanks! Very illuminating. Thanks again :)

Concerning biamping... yap. That's a question I've actually been thinking of raising, even though I didn't thought of it in the context of this thread. I'll probably drive my next two-way active speaker (using external amps and external crossover) with 2 x Crown CTS 1200. Found'em super cheap on ebay. 600 w each channel. Talked to the manufacturer, and the drivers should be safe anyway. Vertical bi-amping would probably be best in this case, no? Complete channel separation between the speakers, and probably more peak power for the woofers? (I don't know whether the CTS 1200 use a single power supply or two power supplies). Or - are there potential downsides here that I'm not aware of?
 
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Thomas savage

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Sorry, missed this... Not really the right thread for it, but Amir has already provided some info. I had a long post someplace on WBF but rarely visit there these days. There are some advantages to monoblocks but of course implementation is a huge player in the benefits you might actually receive (and hear). Below are some quick off-the-cuff comments. Note these are somewhat subjective because they depend upon how manufacturers implement the designs.

Pros:
  1. Completely independent chassis so any signal crosstalk is likely not between amplifier channels.
  2. Generally bigger power supplies with more charge storage so may offer greater long-term dynamic headroom.
  3. No voltage modulation (crosstalk) between channel power supplies. A big signal in one channel dragging down the rails does not affect the other channel.
  4. Easier thermal management with independent heat sinks and such, and monoblocks often have more room for cooling since only one channel is in each box.
  5. Facilitates placement near speakers using very short speaker cables (and thus longer interconnect cables). The speaker side is usually much more sensitive to cable interactions (amp out impedances are low, but speakers can be rather nasty loads).
  6. Monoblocks tend to utilize the best of manufacturer's components and design concepts since they are usually only sold to higher-end customers. How audible that may be varies widely (for the most part I'd guess not much but YMMV).
  7. They look cool and you can tell all your friends how dedicated you are.
Cons:
  1. No sharing of power supplies generally means greater overall SWAP (size, weight, and power) and greater heat dissipation.
  2. Can still have crosstalk at the source or through the power lines (not a really a con, more just a comment, and not likely IME/IMO).
  3. Need added space for the amplifiers, natch, and space around them for cooling, additional power outlets, etc. May need a platform behind the speakers (I would not place an amp on the floor, carpeted or not, due to risk of additional dust from floor and heat build-up especially if on carpet).
  4. Potential for ground loops if they are placed on different outlets from each other and/or the preamp, or from the longer/extra interconnects and power safety ground connections.
  5. Longer interconnects (if required) may be more susceptible to picking up hum and noise (usually not a problem, just get a decent -- NOT expensive -- cable, and route appropriately).
  6. Higher cost (extra power supplies, chassis cost $$$ -- and IMO since they are on the upper end of most lines manufacturers can exact a premium).
  7. Lower WAF.
Next I suppose we'll have to discuss vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping... ;)

HTH - Don
Number 7 on the pro column renders the rest of the two lists irrelevant :D
 

DonH56

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I tend to prefer vertical (one amp/side) because I like having the amp right next to the speaker and because as you said it splits the power demands. Bass is usually the biggest power demand by far so if you have two identical amps then vertical makes most sense to me. That way the bass (which is often mono) is split between the two sides. If you are really pushing the limits, however, then both amps will clip and potentially affect highs and lows via power supply coupling whereas one amp for bass and one for highs will enable the bass amp to clip without affecting the highs, potentially saving your tweeters. If you are clipping all the time you really need bigger amps, however.

Horizontal I have done when I want to use a bigger amp for the woofers (typical in pro setups) and/or different "flavors" of amps for lows and mid/treble (e.g. SS or hybrid bass amp, tube upper amp).
 

oivavoi

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I tend to prefer vertical (one amp/side) because I like having the amp right next to the speaker and because as you said it splits the power demands. Bass is usually the biggest power demand by far so if you have two identical amps then vertical makes most sense to me. That way the bass (which is often mono) is split between the two sides. If you are really pushing the limits, however, then both amps will clip and potentially affect highs and lows via power supply coupling whereas one amp for bass and one for highs will enable the bass amp to clip without affecting the highs, potentially saving your tweeters. If you are clipping all the time you really need bigger amps, however.

Horizontal I have done when I want to use a bigger amp for the woofers (typical in pro setups) and/or different "flavors" of amps for lows and mid/treble (e.g. SS or hybrid bass amp, tube upper amp).

Thanks again! More or less like I thought then. I highly doubt there will ever come a point where I drive my amplifiers to the point of clipping, with that kind of power reserves...
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Hi all, just found an interesting post at avsforum that I thought members here would enjoy. What is incredible to me are the pictures of Dr. Tools system and how he positioned his speakers, especially since he doesn't use equalization above the transition frequencies. Very cool to see what he uses at home.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/710918-revel-owners-thread-321.html#post52485977
What? No M2s sitting out in the middle of the room toed in to the ears of a single chair? Two couches facing each other instead of the speakers? Clearly Dr, Toole is married...
 

speedy

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I know I'm digging up a really old thread here, but I'm curious about the speakers being up against the front wall.

I always read that you should ideally have your speakers 36" off the front wall (or even better 1/3 of the way into the room) for proper imaging, but it seems like Dr. Toole's listening room doesn't adhere by simply mounting the speakers directly to the front wall.

Does anyone have any ideas what the reasoning is for this configuration? (maybe it's just purely aesthetic and Dr. Toole lives in a real home like the rest of us)

1570812616822.png
 

DonH56

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He posts here, ask him... You can also read about his system at https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/...te-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room (full disclosure: John is my dealer for Harman products)

Dipoles and some ported designs may require space behind but most speakers do not. There will be some bass reinforcement but that is easily handled. IIRC the Salon2s are mounted high for aesthetics and to let his projector screen fall in front of them.
 
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speedy

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@DonH56 Thanks for the explanation.

@Floyd Toole Is there a negative effect on stereo imaging with the Salon2s being mounted directly to the front wall? Thanks for sharing your listening room and knowledge with all of us!
 

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DonH56

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Little more time to post...

Flush mounting is often referenced as ideal as there is no chance for interference from the back wave -- there is no back wave! As the speaker is moved away from the wall, nulls will appear at a distance related to frequency (at quarter lengths, i.e. fnull = vp/(4d) where vp is the speed of sound (1127'/s) and d is the distance from the wall behind (or side, or top/bottom). Note at 80 Hz a quarter wavelength is about 3.5' so if you crossover to subs at 80 Hz it makes sense to move them more than that away from the wall so any null occurs below the crossover frequency. It works in reverse, too: placing woofers low on towers means the null from the floor (hopefully) happens above their useful range. This is called the speaker-boundary interference response or SBIR.

Interference effects happen at odd multiples of the quarter wavelength, leading to nulls higher in frequency that make the response look like the tines on a comb, thus comb filtering. I have an article showing that but am not sure it is here on ASR; there are many on-line tutorials, natch.

The 1/3-2/3 rule is more about room modes that introduce a bass null related to room dimensions than imaging IME/IMO.

HTH - Don

Edit: The links @Thomas_A provided explain it much better than I.
 
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