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Dr. Floyd Toole' system - with pictures

SPFC

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Cosmik

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Floyd Toole said:
...the X-curve and calibration processes are based on faulty data. I make a direct attack on "room EQ" which I regard as a disease in our industry
A man after my own heart!:)
 

RayDunzl

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Full size:

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amirm

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Wow, most excellent read. At first I didn't notice the Salon 2 was upside down and could not fathom how Dr. Toole would deploy them that high. Then I noticed they were on their heads. Still can't tell how they are balanced. :)
 

Sal1950

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"The current topic of internal discussion in SMPTE has to do with excessive loudness in many movies, which get turned down by cinema owners, with the regrettable loss in dialog intelligibility. Another mess, driven by directors who want their movie to be the loudest on the block. Compression is widespread - as is hearing loss among the mixers who aren't wise enough to wear musicians earplugs."

I find this a bit confusing?
If the high dynamic peaks in movies are forcing the owners to lower the levels causing a loss of dialog, it's the lack of compression in the mix causing the issue?
 

Sal1950

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amirm

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The peaks on the effects channel are too high. So theater owners, worried about people complaining about the sound being too loud, turn down the volume. That in turn causes the vocals to not be loud enough/intelligible.
 

Sal1950

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The peaks on the effects channel are too high. So theater owners, worried about people complaining about the sound being too loud, turn down the volume. That in turn causes the vocals to not be loud enough/intelligible.
OK thanks, I get how your looking at it. Just a matter of how you look at the dr big picture then. :p
If you consider all channels ganged together, it's still a matter of too much dr whether it's the LFE adding all the peaks or not.
Don't see why he made the comment on compression then in any case? It's the owners making the mistake (if you'd call it that) of turning down the composite level instead of just taming the LFE level, if that's possible for them to control separately.
 

Blumlein 88

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https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-2/

I think if you read this article about level practices and wrap your mind around it until it makes sense, what is being said about theater owners turning down volume and then voices not being loud enough will fall right in place and make perfect sense. The beginning of the article is about Dolby trying to determine a proper reference level and why.

This was written as an AES presentation in 200o by Bob Katz about his K system. If this or something much like it following his suggestions were standard practice it would lead music mastering out of the wilderness of the loudness wars and make recordings good again.
 

oivavoi

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Hi all, just found an interesting post at avsforum that I thought members here would enjoy. What is incredible to me are the pictures of Dr. Tools system and how he positioned his speakers, especially since he doesn't use equalization above the transition frequencies. Very cool to see what he uses at home.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/710918-revel-owners-thread-321.html#post52485977

Very interesting. Thanks. I also notice that dr. Toole seems to use monoblocks to power his two front speakers and the center. Is there any validitity to the thing about using monoblocks? I had assumed this was mostly audiophoolery. But if Toole does it, I assume there might be something to it...
 

oivavoi

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But: Given the listening distance here, I struggle to imagine that he will get any razor sharp imaging/pinpointing... The distance between the listening position and the speakers is much larger than the distance between the speakers. I would assume that this will create a pleasant and somewhat diffuse soundfield, but not very precise pinpoint imaging. Now of course, given that Toole primarily seems to be a classical buff, that kind of soundfield is much closer to how music actually sounds in live classical concerts. And that could also explain why Toole always has been a fan of using reflections to increase spaciousness (but which may adversely affect sharp imaging). Whereas for me, I doubt that this kind of setup would satisfy me completely.

vDyo6ZK4ukPD1QgkNc7t7BKJ4iOdjlXmETq0Hkc-jBpnOICXVqxX3APfB-Rpx8b5JwYwOn5cybJogX599gXrtp5vb9JteJaoL5WnznSgu8xfwyJ2ivoebsLk2LmNcRhMkoRP9RBX9w6H0jguxQ26hOaD1f0fwHI38I3ITp8vEHmdPxJeiBtKYOUMi1XHV92eMr-QoJ56L5LkV_Hb1FzsygH3NZb3OkqiL5IvZuEG_lPepohTl2slKiGQdfeW1LFyRvf1WIzF2Uf9q0mQSn6rG8f_sPGDXK4wSHb7qSdTJsxS-dZi_o3nULKM0LntIkx-XmJq1VBeAmO7e1CabQckAFQX1HB1Vyj_srdO9Zrv9s2Vrmpqm2tse8AbIIJcjGvTvFmRL8FUNB-phONA2vAU0gz59ImXS3p3ja1L6WYzKUDeVpJFGtsg_J6Y6gUYPlD8shg1pj0mz0IgdADEXLs61Sex8tQdCSF7l1Rs1S53JZ87XjvPqoFPpQVWL1gCDZ_MMWi8DZBOnOLmInmFWkPFB4QhHj_1cWkvM1t88oC23uZyrzw3IaI-eKIIJz1h95ymMKIe0EKl7PkM1skhbFOFs_oe0zRT1wuTIHTVUcWuVww3VM4pbWC4=w2804-h1644-no
 

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Very interesting. Thanks. I also notice that dr. Toole seems to use monoblocks to power his two front speakers and the center. Is there any validitity to the thing about using monoblocks? I had assumed this was mostly audiophoolery. But if Toole does it, I assume there might be something to it...

What "thing" about monoblocks?

I suspect he's using because he had them, and because he can, but there are technical reasons for monoblocks. Like many things audio, whether or not any of the technical advantages translate to actual audible improvements is debatable and depends very much upon other factors.

I suspect Dr. Toole's room reflects his lifestyle choices and aesthetics and is more representative of a typical living/listening room than any sort of ideal reference room.

I keep seeing those speakers pop up, hmmm... Wish someone around here had them to demo.Don't know if they would supplant planars in my system but I would like to hear a pair. I should be able to hear a pair of F208's and M2's this summer.
 

Sal1950

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But: Given the listening distance here, I struggle to imagine that he will get any razor sharp imaging/pinpointing...
I see it as more of a dedicated home theater/mch design, than a 2 ch rig striving for pinpoint imaging. Ideal setups have somewhat different priorities. A great 2ch rig would also demand the speakers placed out in free space with toe in, etc, etc. ;)
 

RayDunzl

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Given the listening distance here

I find it very difficult to judge distances, especially in rooms, from photos.

Here, I'll guess the recliner puts the listener about 15-16 feet from the speakers, which are about 12 feet apart, using 18" floor tile squares as a guessing reference.

Still can't tell how they are balanced.

He mentioned earthquake-proof install.

The weight seems to be a bit much for the tweeter, which shows signs of being squashed...

On the other hand, they seem to extend well past the shelf they seem to be resting upon, so, I think they're wall-mounted and floating out farther than it looks at first glance.

upload_2017-4-26_11-51-59.png
 

Sal1950

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Is there any validitity to the thing about using monoblocks?
I suspect he's using because he had them, and because he can,
Exactly, if you had access to free ML monoblocks wouldn't you have them? LOL

On the other hand, they seem to extend well past the shelf they seem to be resting upon, so, I think they're wall-mounted and floating out farther than it looks at first glance.
Your right, the closeup you post does seem to show they are out a bit and also have a bit of toe-in.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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But: Given the listening distance here, I struggle to imagine that he will get any razor sharp imaging/pinpointing... The distance between the listening position and the speakers is much larger than the distance between the speakers. I would assume that this will create a pleasant and somewhat diffuse soundfield, but not very precise pinpoint imaging. Now of course, given that Toole primarily seems to be a classical buff, that kind of soundfield is much closer to how music actually sounds in live classical concerts. And that could also explain why Toole always has been a fan of using reflections to increase spaciousness (but which may adversely affect sharp imaging). Whereas for me, I doubt that this kind of setup would satisfy me completely.

vDyo6ZK4ukPD1QgkNc7t7BKJ4iOdjlXmETq0Hkc-jBpnOICXVqxX3APfB-Rpx8b5JwYwOn5cybJogX599gXrtp5vb9JteJaoL5WnznSgu8xfwyJ2ivoebsLk2LmNcRhMkoRP9RBX9w6H0jguxQ26hOaD1f0fwHI38I3ITp8vEHmdPxJeiBtKYOUMi1XHV92eMr-QoJ56L5LkV_Hb1FzsygH3NZb3OkqiL5IvZuEG_lPepohTl2slKiGQdfeW1LFyRvf1WIzF2Uf9q0mQSn6rG8f_sPGDXK4wSHb7qSdTJsxS-dZi_o3nULKM0LntIkx-XmJq1VBeAmO7e1CabQckAFQX1HB1Vyj_srdO9Zrv9s2Vrmpqm2tse8AbIIJcjGvTvFmRL8FUNB-phONA2vAU0gz59ImXS3p3ja1L6WYzKUDeVpJFGtsg_J6Y6gUYPlD8shg1pj0mz0IgdADEXLs61Sex8tQdCSF7l1Rs1S53JZ87XjvPqoFPpQVWL1gCDZ_MMWi8DZBOnOLmInmFWkPFB4QhHj_1cWkvM1t88oC23uZyrzw3IaI-eKIIJz1h95ymMKIe0EKl7PkM1skhbFOFs_oe0zRT1wuTIHTVUcWuVww3VM4pbWC4=w2804-h1644-no

I agree that his front LR speakers are closer together than ideal, which would be the +-30 degrees in the ITU standard for Mch music. It is ideal for movies, too. That would also be the same as the equilateral triangle configuration often recommended for stereo. But, I suspect he might have set his closer together to keep them away from the corners and side walls. He could perhaps have compensated by bringing the sofa closer to them, but chose not to do so for whatever reason.

In my old room, the fronts in my 7.1 system were at about +-22 degrees. In my current room, they are at +-30. There might be more involved because of the room change, but I like the wider positions much better. That is for music as well as movies.

Reading the AVS web posting, though, the really curious thing is that he is looking to add speakers at +-60 degrees. I do not know what that is about, since it is not part of any discrete Mch format standard I know of, not ITU, DTS, Dolby, Auro, etc. as far as I am aware. So, those channels in the 60 degree positions would have to be artificially synthesized, not something I would consider. It does not appear he is talking about vertical angle, either. 60 degrees vertically is not part of any standard.

I know the aesthetics of the room are important, but I sure would have covered up 100% of that reflective tile floor with thick carpeting.

But, Dr. Toole and I share a keen appreciation for Mch music. I also greatly admire his Revels, which are used in a friend's Mch setup with excellent results.

Incidentally, on dialog articulation, my friend started with two Revel Salons, but he kept his old Piega center, a Swiss-made, ribbon-based speaker. The system was Dirac calibrated by me, but dialog articulation remained poor. He replaced the center with a matching horizontal Revel, just like Toole's. Dialog suddenly became much, much improved. Sometimes, it is just the speaker.

I hate to brag, but dialog articulation in my own Mch system with video sources is extraordinarily good. I am using the same Martin Logan Stage horizontal 'stat hybrid I have been using for the last 10 years. We do not use ear splitting sound levels. My wife gets uncomfortable if I do.
 
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amirm

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I think the horizontal distance is determined by the width of the drop down projection screen with the speakers flanking it.

BTW guys, if you want me to reach out to Dr. Toole and get some questions answered, I am happy to do that.
 

DonH56

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Cosmik

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John did that already and just posted the answers. Dr. Toole responded with knowledge and humor, well worth reading his follow-up: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...evel-home-theater-thread-51.html#post52520193
Controversial stuff!:)
He basically says that if your speaker is pretty neutral to start with, you can dispense with room measurements and EQ - in fact they will mess up the sound. Your hearing separates the room from the direct sound, so you can plug in your speakers, put on a CD and relax...
 
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