DO SPECS REALLY MATTER in Audio? - Understanding Speaker Measurements!

[Helicopter]

Hello

I understand the point you are making but this is just an extension of non science based periodical's. This is nothing new just more accessible. This is right up there with people putting up videos so you can judge how their system sounds. Limited to no value.

Rob

If I make a video of the 8 track player in my basement with original Panasonic speakers, it will give you an accurate impression I think.

 

[MattHooper]

I'm not hating on the guy but...if you are going to make an "educational video" you are going to take your lumps if you aren't up to snuff, or misleading.

Andrew came down on the "measurements don't matter to me" because he enjoys what he enjoys, and he often enjoys speakers that aren't neutral.

Well...all that is MEASURABLE. So if you know how to read the measurements, in principle you can see how it relates to what you like, and help predict or guide your choices.

What it really implies is that he doesn't know enough about speaker measurements to understand how it predicts the sound of a speaker.
Because if he did, then measurements would be entirely relevant to his tastes.

The person off-screen in the conversation said something like "I couldn't care less if something had a certain measurable frequency response" and "at the end of the day we aren't listening to measurements and graphs." Well..yes you are. The graphs tell you what you are hearing - IF you know how to read them. And of course she cares if a speaker she likes has a "certain frequency response" given that it undoubtedly much of what she is responding to (at least in regard to the sound - visual bias may also be a part). In other words, it just seems another case of audiophiles who still haven't put two-and-two together as to how measurements describe and predict sound. But videos like this leave me with the impression that, even when they couch their opinion in terms of "to me," they are still implying measurements can't relate to their own tastes - as if it's the fault of measurements not divining their unique taste, rather than their simply not knowing how to interpret the measurements. The failing is put on measurements in that regard, rather than the reviewer's own ignorance.

(BTW, I say that as someone who also still doesn't feel super confident reading speaker measurements. Which is why I wouldn't go making "educational videos" about speaker measurements. I can get general ideas, but I can't completely predict from many measurements exactly how it sounds or how I'll respond to listening. Sometimes I'll look at measurements of speakers I've heard and think "yeah, that explains what I heard." Other times, not so much. But, that's me, and also I don't have a blind listening set up to go through all those variables. And, yes, I understand that's where in principle a manufacturer like HK comes in who are sort of "doing the research for us.").

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I’ve been trying to tell people these YouTubers are a plague to the hubby since two years ago. Glad people are starting to realize how nonsense they are. This guy, and zero fidelity are the two worst influencers on YouTube and should be banned from giving advice. Even new record day does better content.

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve been trying to tell people these YouTubers are a plague to the hubby since two years ago. Glad people are starting to realize how nonsense they are. This guy, and zero fidelity are the two worst influencers on YouTube and should be banned from giving advice. Even new record day does better content.

Well..that sounds a tad draconian.

Let's ban people in our hobby who we disagree with?

 

[Sombreuil]

Well..that sounds a tad draconian.

Let's ban people in our hobby who we disagree with?

Even though I agree with you, let's not forget that is also what quite a lot of Youtubers do. They just block/censor people they don't agree with.

 

[MattHooper]

Even though I agree with you, let's not forget that is also what quite a lot of Youtubers do. They just block/censor people they don't agree with.

An individual choosing not to listen to someone is different from banning them from giving any advice.
But I know you were being a bit hyperbolic. I get the sentiment. (Though I actually like subjective reviews too).

 

[Hifihedgehog]

"The only person who has to like the sound is you." Says he repeatedly. So you go buy a speaker that Andrew recommends and you don't like it. Then what? How is that any kind of advice? Why should anyone watch him if it is free for all?

The hypocrite let the cat out of the bag and basically revealed the utter lie of the vast majority of the reviewing world at large: “we recommend everything but trust nothing we have to say (because we have to cozy up to all our sponsors so we keep getting free swag).” That is why most reviews are masquerading as in-depth, ”scientific” analysis when it is only just the idle meanderings of a word jockey prettied up with buzzwords and other useless word-smithery to give it the veneer of journalistic integrity. They pretend to one degree or another to be a reputable source, to be the final word as if they understood the science and the data. They will read the specification sheets and the fancy-sounding quotes, throw up fancy charts and graphs, giving their audience the works to that end of verisimilitude. Meanwhile, they are really only mindlessly quoting the press material that was just handed to them verbatim without any inkling of what it means or if it holds or even actually applies in everyday use or at all. These “professional” reviewers have no idea what in the world they are talking about and are spitballing the whole thing with anecdotes and hyperbole for the upvotes and ego-stroking. They do a grave disservice to the real reviewers who actually know what they are talking, that put in the necessary mental effort and have done their homework, who now have to work overtime and a half just to undo the damage of the “Kool-Aid” misinformation they have dispensed to the masses.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

What these people do could be beneficial in the sense that they create more interest for hifi and audio.

It becomes a problem when advice and claims that are provably false are presented as fact from someone who presents as an expert. But that goes for most of the hifi-press as well.

I have tried to find good videos on yt - on audio/hifi - most are not worth watching. Those who do more damage than good are those who look quite professional, and gives right out misleading information. For the casual viewer, it is not so easy to spot the nonsense.

But it is not necessary to be an expert or have in-depth technical knowledge to create content that is both entertaining and informative. There is one person, think it was a Canadian, made videos where he tells the story of how he experience the sound and how he is affected by the combination of the equipment and its sound. He did not present himself as an expert, merely someone who is fascinated by sound and hifi, and just tried to tell the story of his experience. This was both entertaining and informative, because I could get a better understanding for what he and his likes search for and are fascinated by.

 

[Gene DellaSala]

Andrew Robinson has inspired me to do a Youtube video to counter his diatribe which should go live by the end of the week. I realize now more than ever that some Youtube "Influencers" are dumbing down audio and waging a war on science and we all need to stick together to keep things real. I commend Amir and Erin's efforts and hope we can all work together going forward.

 

[amirm]

Sign me up Gene and welcome to ASR!

 

[Gene DellaSala]

Amir;

Would love to have you on our YT Channel and maybe we can get Dr. Sean Olive on there too

Right now I'm trying to get the FTC to keep the Amplifier Ruling going, hope you don't mind me dropping this link:
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifi...-rule-help-protect-home-audio-consumers-today

 

[sweetchaos]

Welcome to ASR, Gene.
Great to have you here.
Your expertise and contributions in this industry cannot be understated.

I’m looking forward to your contributions and perhaps a YouTube collaboration between yourself, @amirm and @hardisj one day?
Big fan of your work.

 

[Daverz]

Apparently this dude has blocked my replies from appearing on his channel.

It's sad. Everyone could learn something from an open dialog. But his channel is a money making enterprise that depends on maintaining a facade of authority. Publishing your post would damage his "brand".

The "Youtube way" is to post your own video that directly responds to his so that the algorithm recommends it to his subscribers.

 

[a-gainer]

Not sure what you mean by the "Harman Tilt"? Are you referring to the predicted in-room curve (PIR) ? That is simply a mathematical weighting of different curves in the spinorama that seem to fall closely with what is typically measured in rooms.

Ja, the colloquial term of "the tilt". With my previous reply I obviously didn't manage to express myself clearly. That guy is talking about his preferences, and everybody else's preferences. Your "preference rating", calculated from the spinorama does the same. Only that the latter is based on statistics. It just forgets about the individuals, in order to come to more predictive conclusions, derived from an average. That's o/k.

My personal preference: do the real measurements, understand the outcome => spinorama!

Your and Floyd Toole's contribution was to determine, which measurements are reasonable. That's for sure some sorts of science, maybe in the field of physiology? But still it is deeply connected to statistics.

Putting it very short: once one finds an average or a "mean" or "expectation value" using statistics, one still must not dismiss individual deviations - these are not "wrong", but the very basis of the statistical reasoning

Hmm, that should be enough, sorry

 

[Feelas]

Ja, the colloquial term of "the tilt". With my previous reply I obviously didn't manage to express myself clearly. That guy is talking about his preferences, and everybody else's preferences. Your "preference rating", calculated from the spinorama does the same. Only that the latter is based on statistics. It just forgets about the individuals, in order to come to more predictive conclusions, derived from an average. That's o/k.

My personal preference: do the real measurements, understand the outcome => spinorama!

Your and Floyd Toole's contribution was to determine, which measurements are reasonable. That's for sure some sorts of science, maybe in the field of physiology? But still it is deeply connected to statistics.

Putting it very short: once one finds an average or a "mean" or "expectation value" using statistics, one still must not dismiss individual deviations - these are not "wrong", but the very basis of the statistical reasoning

Hmm, that should be enough, sorry

Yes, but there is the elementary metric of statistics, called standard deviation - and I believe that targeting a curve, that has the least standard deviation for everyone is the best starting point, as one can make adjustments as they like, but you're always somewhere near. If the deviation is measurable, then why are we going with this nonsensical rhetoric of statistics somehow strangling the people? It's nonsense!

 

[TimVG]

Putting it very short: once one finds an average or a "mean" or "expectation value" using statistics, one still must not dismiss individual deviations - these are not "wrong", but the very basis of the statistical reasoning

You'll notice these individual deviations tend to fall under spectral tilt. Tone controls work great in this regard.
I can assure you no one, for instance, prefers resonances to be introduced.

 

[a-gainer]

You'll notice these individual deviations tend to fall under spectral tilt. Tone controls work great in this regard.
I can assure you no one, for instance, prefers resonances to be introduced.

Yes, but there is the elementary metric of statistics, called standard deviation - and I believe that targeting a curve, that has the least standard deviation for everyone is the best starting point, as one can make adjustments as they like, but you're always somewhere near. If the deviation is measurable, then why are we going with this nonsensical rhetoric of statistics somehow strangling the people? It's nonsense!

Appreciated! But, as I feel it, this might get complicated. Better I shut up with nonsensical rhetoric, as You put it. There is too much in it, I cannot express without too much of back and forth background argumentation, but this was meant to be fun, right?

 

[BDWoody]

Appreciated! But, as I feel it, this might get complicated. Better I shut up with nonsensical rhetoric, as You put it. There is too much in it, I cannot express without too much of back and forth background argumentation, but this was meant to be fun, right?

That you @GelbeMusik ?

Why the new name?

 

[Koeitje]

You'll notice these individual deviations tend to fall under spectral tilt. Tone controls work great in this regard.
I can assure you no one, for instance, prefers resonances to be introduced.

This is one thing some people really struggle to grasp, they think preference is a frequency response that is all over the place.

 

[TimVG]

This is one thing some people really struggle to grasp, they think preference is a frequency response that is all over the place.

A big problem is the recordings themselves. If we accept that the large majority enjoys a neutral sound and regression (tilt), any deviation from this in the monitoring setup/calibration will give the inverse effect on the recording itself. The lack of standards is a problem.