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DO SPECS REALLY MATTER in Audio? - Understanding Speaker Measurements!

Helicopter

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Most people out there don't give a flying intercourse about sonic quality. Hell, my parents listen to music on a friggin smartphone speaker and look at me dumbfounded when I yell at them because the obviously distorted sound hurts my ears. >.<

So yeah: most people buy some big name brand, think they have something good because they spent a truckload of cash, never care about room interactions and just blast the damn thing till kingdom (or police) come.

Everyone else is part of a super tiny minority of enthusiasts.


Easy now, careful with the black magic, you know it has a terrible cost associated with it like ... selling your soul to you know who!
This is true. The reasons are the poor quality of audio memory, lack of critical listening, and lack of side-by-side comparisons. Even if they would clearly prefer say a DBR62 over a Cornwall IV in the Harman listening room behind a curtain, their purchase choice is more likely based on comparing a memory to a speaker, at best. Many people just see which speakers have a high star rating and go with that.
 

Robh3606

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Most people out there don't give a flying intercourse about sonic quality. Hell, my parents listen to music on a friggin smartphone speaker and look at me dumbfounded when I yell at them because the obviously distorted sound hurts my ears. >.<


I guess you are mostly younger than me or I was lucky. My dad was a music and stereo nut. I grew up reading his audio magazines and we had music on all the time playing on what he could afford to purchase at the time. I purchased my first speakers with paper route money I saved.

When I was a kid we had a bunch of brick and mortar stores. We became friendly with the sales guys who worked there and they really gave a damn about if you were happy with your purchase. They went out of their way to get you the bet bang for your buck. This was all before the box stores were the main venue for purchase. You walk into one of them and usually the sales people are clueless in comparison to the brick and mortar guys.

So from my point of view there certainly is a generational difference at how stereos are looked at. They seem to be an after thought.

It's more about convenience vs. quality

Rob :)
 

fivepast8

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I absolutely Love Measurements. I like reading about them, I like taking them, I love that level of investigation. I ENJOY that aspect of audio (and in many other topics/arenas)
In my experience with lots of other people, it is rare to find comradery. Far less folks I meet are into measuring/dissecting stuff - regarding anything - including audio measurements. Yet nearly everyone I meet listens to music and many of them even are very passionate about music.

I watched that video.
It is the only video by the reviewer I have ever seen, and therefore the only one I can currently comment on, I have no idea what else that dude is up to.

IMHO he does a great job explaining some important things about measurements, what very basically is going on in realm measurements and in speaker design to the general public. We are talking the not uncommon person, who might instantly have glazed eyes when the topic of measurements and such stuff comes up.
For that person that reviewer, IMHO is actually introducing them to the basic validly of measurements and that within that there some inherent limitations. Again he is speaking toward someone who would not currently be excited by the content of ASR and similar sites that focus on measuring. Nor would such person spend time trying understand and interpret a spinorama or figure out a great new way to measure speaker IMD. That "common" person now has at least a modicum of understanding of the challenges in speaker design and purchase selection.
As a human very interested in measurements, I would be excited to get some of my friends to listen to me wax about speakers measurements in any fashion for 20 minutes.

Unfortunately he targeted Harman, which is a can of worms for some. Well that target makes sense to me as they are currently one notable top tier standard bearer for advocating certain principles and certainly many groups of Audiophiles have chosen to really promote the Harman approach as an elite level, measurement based approach. (and I would personally agree that they are that) He could have chosen Genelec or Neumann or any other brand focused on using using measurements to create a notably nuetral/prefered design. Many such brands are very small and generally unheard of. Zero of their products are for sale at BestBuy and Crutchfield so the huge Harman target is a good target to bounce off.

He also sort of propped up Klipsch, a brand known as not accurate and geared toward pissing off the neighbors sound. This of course is an attention getter if you don't like Klipsch much.

I must say that I am personally a huge fan of many current and recent Harman speaker products and other brands of speaker products that fall into the category of science based design used in service toward producing a perceived neutral response.
I have tried quite a few in my space.
I recommend them frequently.
Now, I have a ton of friends who are music junkies and even my GF and some close friends have worked worked deeply in the music industry. We get the good seats for free to nearly any concert we want here.
The point is that I am around folks who love music and rarely does anyone what to chat about speaker gear design. There are many music lovers who are not turned on by that at all. Even folks who are interested in my speakers after hearing their favorite tunes on them don't want to chat for long about the why's and how's of the excellent sound, they just want to hear it.

Now does that mean they prefer a hack and slash designed garage speaker design over a Revel? (I doubt it, & yet I can not say for sure.)

I think that Youtube video goes a long way toward reaching a typical music enthusiast (read not yet or perhaps not ever an audiophile, rather a passionate music lover who wants some guidance in buying decent speakers)

When I recommend speakers I take into account most of what that Tube reviewer discusses. In fact I agree with the vast majority of his general commentary and I think his girlfriends comments echo many actual people's ability to discuss this stuff. Meaning they really can't and don't really want to.
I bet she loves listening to all the different gear though and loves music.

They kind of remind of my situation. I listen often with my GF and she has really had a course in audio over that 4 years of our relationship. She loves it and she is a sweet heart who loves me so she get involved when I digress into speaker design and measurements. I know though that what she loves is trying all the gear and listening for herself. She has never pulled up a graph online and yet she always gets excited when a new box arrives.
I will say she loves when I have speaker parts everywhere and am in the yard making a DIY thing or inside using microphones running test tones, the activity is fun energy and she appreciates what goes into the art of audio. (yah, seriously I am one lucky Dude)

She has heard a lot of stuff now and when discovering her favorites, they have been (regardless of price and price has varied a lot) speakers she described as having a "soul". Additionally all of these models measure quite well. She has never liked a poorly measuring speaker, she notices flaws pretty accurately and changes I make to the sound and yet for her some speakers have a "soul" and others do not. Several well measuring models did not captivate her (nor I) and others did.
I will reiterate that never once did she ever ask to keep a speaker that did not turn out to have at least great basic measurements, nor did we always enjoy speakers that measure well equally and despite appreciating that sound was "good" we passed. (& I mean notably not equal as in I truely don't want them, even with Eq at play.)
Several of the commercial speakers we kept and the two pairs she liked the most were in fact contemporary Harman products, additionally a couple Harman products didn't make the "we love them" cut.
All in all though I admit to being impressed with their speaker gear.

Because I try a lot of gear my Gf and I, have the luxury of all this 1st hand experience for which I find it hard to believe there is any substitute.
Ideally I highly suggest people try multiple speakers/products in their own homes. I realize this may be a serious pain yet it is the only way IMHO to discover what you like well enough.
Since many folks are just not going to do that for one reason or another, what is the next best solution?



Per the usual your comments are fantastic and...
This.
While sounding good, all three sound different.
You must listen, which I felt/perceived was the point most strongly made in that Tube vid.
You are a professional reviewer and have many products come and go and you get paid for your time spent with them. Which one of these 3 do you recommend? I bet you recommend them all, but to different folks & I further my wager that you have a personal favorite that you would pick if like a "normal person" you had to live with that speaker and that speaker alone, for the next 5 years.
(*by the way I'd be really interested in hearing about which one of those three you would pick and why - I am thinking about buying a pair of HDI1600's OR L82's)

I am sorta like a mini reviewer due to trying so much gear and I have a pair or two that I would save in a fire and many others that I might actually be happy to claim insurance on despite the fact that they do sound good.

While hopefully all here @ ASR are truly lovers of sound and music, we are surely nerds. We are audiophile nerds and secretly want to be the next human with a Kipple being installed in our garage(man 1st I wish I had a real garage) and get pissed when reviews don't have spins and we might get immersed in the next issue of Voice Coil test bench pondering raw drivers.

All these measurements here are way, way beyond what IMHO the typical buyer want to ingest & in no way is that lack of interest in the tests here a measure of their interest in listing to good sound. They want good sound not a membership in the audio club.
So how does one reach them with speakers that measure well, without talking about that, as talking about that will not help in this hypothetical case. (In fact it may even turn them off, yah)

As someone who writes excellent detailed reviews (& I mean yours are really wonderful and you clearly have a passion and a talent for them), how to do help someone chose a speaker in real life. Someone you meet or someone who is friend, not someone who is getting info from your published reviews - which for them may actually be far to nerdy and in depth. What is the most basic, basic stuff?


I certainly agree with this & now what?
The experience of diminished return hits fast and hard now in audio. So many products are so good in affordable price ranges, IMHO such products would more than satisfy 95% of buyers.
It many cases the cost variation is most easily justified now in fit and finish and location of manufacture.

In theory for the purpose of creating a test example, if you are a PEQ user and a Harman score person, you can equalize a JBL A130 to nearly perform as well as an equalized KEF Meta. (6.5ish)
Now, we really need to listen to both speakers and find out what is what right?
$300(often on sale for $180) vs $1500.
Not the same fit and finish, perhaps equal sound quality.

I am not saying we should stop trying to make sense of the audio world and I deeply appreciate those who really invest in doing so. It just is so often a case of I want a Corvette and you want a CR-V and then the question is which one gets to the grocery store more accurately. hmmm...


Look I hope I am not way out of line when I ask who cares?
I am awaiting the next of your absolutely stellar reviews (of some pretty rad speakers), and I have no interest in that Dude's channel.
Yah they accused you of some stuff and deleted your post. I mean it is their channel on Youtube, they have the ability to ban folks from commenting as they see fit.
Their video IMHO wasn't that controversial (again I am not familiar with other vids by that crew) and they seem genuinely into audio, what is the big deal if they don't want to hang out?
At some point your channel is going to very popular and I can assure you, you will be banning some folks. They might be upset about it and feel mistreated but that is the reality.

Thank you for your thought out and lengthy answer. I agree with most of what you say and don't understand the uproar of some of our members here. The guy merely said that measurements don't always translate to your home and that you have to listen and convince yourself. He is also honest in saying that it is his opinion. The critical internet dweller will then conclude, that if measurements don't translate then his opinion will translate even less.... and just tune out!
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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I guess you are mostly younger than me or I was lucky.
My dad had a stereo but he rarely used it. I think I used it more than him (when parents were away) *cough*

Still, he has -0- clue when it comes to audio, never cared about speaker positioning, just plopped them into some corner etc. and well.. as you said: it's an after thought.

Brick and mortar stores are rare, aye. We have one here but they sell a ton of the snake-oil and, as an engineer, I can tell that the people there are not the most knowledgeable bunch. They don't even seem to have any measurement gear when you want to demo speakers, they just plop them into a room and let you listen.

I always liked stereos but until recently I never had the spare cash or the living conditions for big setups, so I was basically a headphone person.
I fell in love with Focal speakers when my friend bought and proudly presented his Aria 926 to me.

Initial reaction was to grab a Focal Clear, and then I opted for pair of Aria 906 a year later, when he bought his surrounds and I could listen to them in his apartment. After that I nabbed myself Dirac Live and made the best out of a very modest budget setup most audiophiles probably scoff at. Total expenditure ... umm less than my Clear alone. :X

Still, it sounds pretty good, considering the fact that I have a SOTA headphone rig to compare. I wish I could make sub work in my room but wherever I measure the graphs look crappier than what my speakers do now. :X

Heh, look at me, starting to ramble...
Bottom line: you were definitely lucky, having a dad that was into this hobby and shared it with you.
 

napilopez

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Per the usual your comments are fantastic and...
This.
While sounding good, all three sound different.
You must listen, which I felt/perceived was the point most strongly made in that Tube vid.
You are a professional reviewer and have many products come and go and you get paid for your time spent with them. Which one of these 3 do you recommend? I bet you recommend them all, but to different folks & I further my wager that you have a personal favorite that you would pick if like a "normal person" you had to live with that speaker and that speaker alone, for the next 5 years.
(*by the way I'd be really interested in hearing about which one of those three you would pick and why - I am thinking about buying a pair of HDI1600's OR L82's)

I am sorta like a mini reviewer due to trying so much gear and I have a pair or two that I would save in a fire and many others that I might actually be happy to claim insurance on despite the fact that they do sound good.

While hopefully all here @ ASR are truly lovers of sound and music, we are surely nerds. We are audiophile nerds and secretly want to be the next human with a Kipple being installed in our garage(man 1st I wish I had a real garage) and get pissed when reviews don't have spins and we might get immersed in the next issue of Voice Coil test bench pondering raw drivers.

All these measurements here are way, way beyond what IMHO the typical buyer want to ingest & in no way is that lack of interest in the tests here a measure of their interest in listing to good sound. They want good sound not a membership in the audio club.
So how does one reach them with speakers that measure well, without talking about that, as talking about that will not help in this hypothetical case. (In fact it may even turn them off, yah)

As someone who writes excellent detailed reviews (& I mean yours are really wonderful and you clearly have a passion and a talent for them), how to do help someone chose a speaker in real life. Someone you meet or someone who is friend, not someone who is getting info from your published reviews - which for them may actually be far to nerdy and in depth. What is the most basic, basic stuff?

Thank you for enjoying my comments. I definitely tend to spend too much time on them! And I will do so again to address some of your points:

You are right that I do recommend all three of the speakers, but still have preferences. However when you say 'you must listen,' (emphasis mine), I disagree. At least, from the perspective of someone in the market for new speakers.

Of course, the ultimate judgement of any speaker happens when you listen to it in your own home for an extended period of time. But for the vast majority of audio enthusiasts, saying "you must listen" is meaningless. Extremely few people have access to a showroom with all the speakers they want to test, or are able to buy them all and return them. Even if you did, you would need an exorbitant amount of time to do proper comparisons taking into account positioning and the like.

This is why people turn to reviewers in the first place: to get an authoritative recommendation. Without being able to test a variety of options on their own, they want to know "How likely is it that I will like speaker X?" And this is just one reason why measurements matter: they are a more reliable predictor of preference than subjective opinion alone.

Consider this: Sometimes people ask me to A/B speakers directly, but I prefer to let the measurements do the talking. After all the speakers I've tested, I have increasingly found sighted A/B stereo tests with the speakers adjacent to one another to be almost useless. Or worse, they can actually be damaging.

For example, when I got the KEF LS50 Meta, I originally placed it right on top of the Choras, which have been my 'reference' speaker since I first reviewed them. I could have sworn the Meta was in another league of performance in terms of detail and neutrality. The difference just seemed so obvious. I even posted about this in the forum a while back, I believe.

I was almost beginning to believe that the reason for this obvious improvement must be the fancy new metamaterials, because I couldn't explain why the KEF sounded so obviously better. The measurements were a bit better, but not that much better.

Well, it turns out that ever so slight difference in positioning was for some reason giving the KEF an edge. I flipped the setup with the Choras on top of the KEFs, and suddenly the Choras sounded better! Womp womp.

I believe the reason for this may be that I have a lot of absorptive materials close to the speaker at the lower height. The speaker on 'top' instead gets more of the reflective wall that better matches the opposite side of the room. A few brief measurements seemed to back this up, though it's something I'm still investigating.

Still it was just another bit of evidence about the unreliability of a poorly-controlled, sighted listening test.

You're right that I do have a preference. After extended listening, without direct direct comparison, I've concluded the LS50 Meta is slightly more neutral with slightly better imaging, but I personally prefer the wider directivity/more expansive soundstage of the Chora (as I've noted many times here, I'm a sucker for wide directivity). Nonetheless I'd recommend the Metas to most people if price isn't a factor. (Not addressing the JBL yet because I've only had it for a week. It has the most bass though, so it may be the easiest to recommend).

But here's the thing: the measurements already told me that. I know I like wide directivity. I knew the KEF would likely be more neutral. You could of course say that I was biased by my measurements, but it has been my consistent experience that listening impressions rarely deviate from what I expect from measurements.

That actually brings up an important point. I think a subjective-only comparison would tend to exaggerate the difference between these speakers. When doing direct comparisons it is very easy to hone in on and exaggerate tiny differences that you'd hardly care about otherwise and can vary simply with a change in positioning.

Here too, measurements provide important perspective. All the speakers are good, and I do not have a strong opinion on which is better. And thanks okay.

As for the idea that the people on ASR are just nerds who want to look at all the measurements, I'm not sure that's fully representative. I don't think the problem is that the typical audio enthusiasts are not interested in data, the problem they've been told are assume the data is not sufficient to provide an accurate recommendation. It's not foolproof, but all the research points to measurements being more reliable predictors of preference and enjoyment.

As I've noted before, my reviews have actually started getting a lot more reads since I started including measurements. Despite this, very often I receive emails from people telling me they don't know how to read the graphs themselves, but they appreciate the analysis of the data.

And that's kind of my point. While I encourage people to learn the science, I don't think every audio enthusiast needs to capture and/or interpret the data. I don't expect readers to know what a spin is. That is a job for reviewers.

Even then, I've said multiple times on this forum that I don't think subjective-only reviews should disappear. I think they often describe details of sound quality correctly. And I think measurements can be misinterpreted too.

I just think the way the language and interpretation around subjective reviews needs to change. There's too much fluff, with speakers and headphones afforded almost mythical qualities through years of marketing spin, hearsay, and dogma. Even if most reviewers continue to only focus on subjective reviews, having more speaker measurements accessible to more people provides an important reality check.

You ask how I help people choose speakers in real life. Simple: I explain the basics of measurements to them. I tell them: this speaker is flatter and has smooth directivity (which is a lot easier to explain when you can use gestures!. And that science suggests if a speaker has a flat frequency responseand good directivity, you're more likely to enjoy it, and it's more likely to faithfully reproduce the recording. They usually understand.

And if there are many options with good measurements in their budget, I just tell them to just pick the one they think is prettiest.

So yes, listen when you can, but don't assume you must listen in order to make a wise purchasing decision.
 
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More Dynamics Please

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While watching one of Andrew's recent videos, I realized that he views speakers in a fundamentally different way than we do here. He said that he liked Speaker X because it sounds like listening to music in a club setting. He likes Speaker Y for its concert hall sound, and Speaker Z for its big, arena sound. Essentially, he wants to use speakers to provide atmosphere, not to merely reproduce recorded sounds.

Buying a different set of speakers for every type of atmosphere we may occasionally want to listen to is both inefficient and expensive. Better to get a single set of speakers with optimum measurements and use DSP to create different ambience. For example when I want to pretend I'm listening to a studio recording in a live environment I simply use one of the many different DSP settings on my Yamaha AVR that mimic the unique sound signatures of various concert halls, clubs and arenas. Of course it's not a perfect solution but it makes way more sense than trying to do it with speakers designed to produce specific atmospheres.
 

VintageFlanker

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Here is Gene's answer:



PS: Very cool to point measurements from @hardisj in it.
Capture d’écran (347).png
 
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ac3dtsthx

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At the end of the day we want to reproduce the source material as faithful as possible. As our hearing threshold is around -115dB, a lot of components in the chain of reproduction can achieve such level of quality that we can't hear the distortion or any artifacts that is introduced by the component . Sad to say vinyl will never achieve the level of quality of digital. Preamps, Dacs and Amplifiers have achieve a level of quality that maybe considered as neutral or transparent, but not the speakers.

High Fidelity as I know it, is to be true to the source material, weather it was recorded good or bad. The reproducing system should not alter or introduce distortion to the signal up to the time we hear such sound in our ears. The biggest distortion inducing components in the reproduction chain are the speakers and the room. Every component is important but these 2, when chosen and done right will have the biggest impact in achieving the best sound possible relative to your listening space.

Without any COMPLETE objective measurements done to speakers, an audiophile will rely on the superlatives that reviewers will toss into the air as if everything that they say is the truth. Reviewers should have hard data that they can present to back up their audio essays. This is why I am very happy for this channel and Erin's corner for the effort that they do in the spirit of calling a spade a spade. A few others on the internet are also doing this unveiling of the TRUTH and my salute them for their work. Spreading lies seems to be the norm with most reviewers, to the select few that do it right, you are not alone. respect where respect is due.
 

MattHooper

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Welcome!

I hope you don't mind if I very gently add some caveats to what you wrote, from my point of view:

High Fidelity as I know it, is to be true to the source material, weather it was recorded good or bad. The reproducing system should not alter or introduce distortion to the signal up to the time we hear such sound in our ears. The biggest distortion inducing components in the reproduction chain are the speakers and the room. Every component is important but these 2, when chosen and done right will have the biggest impact in achieving the best sound possible relative to your listening space.

Generally agreed, and most here would agree I'm sure.

But I'd caution against dogmatism, where we start to denigrate someone else for not keeping in line with our precise goal of High Fidelity in that sense. It's a goal, but not everyone's goal, including people who also care about sound quite a bit. If someone likes a source or a speakers that isn't neutral I have no problem with that.


Without any COMPLETE objective measurements done to speakers, an audiophile will rely on the superlatives that reviewers will toss into the air as if everything that they say is the truth. Reviewers should have hard data that they can present to back up their audio essays. This is why I am very happy for this channel and Erin's corner for the effort that they do in the spirit of calling a spade a spade. A few others on the internet are also doing this unveiling of the TRUTH and my salute them for their work.

Agreed, these sources are greatly welcomed, and all too rare.

But, again, I don't think we need to be dogmatic by insulting or dismissing any manufacturer who is not producing neutral equipment, or audiophiles who are buying such products. Rather, I prefer a more bottom line value of "No B.S." That is, like whatever you like, but don't b.s. about it, don't make technical claims or stories that aren't true, because we want to know what's true. So if a manufacturer (or audiophile) is making certain claims in a technical story, or claiming some lower distortion/closer-to-the-music technology, they should be called out on it, on technical grounds as is often done on this forum. In the spirit of simply adding information to the world and informing people.

Spreading lies seems to be the norm with most reviewers, to the select few that do it right, you are not alone. respect where respect is due.

Here again I think you may be falling in to an exaggeration or perhaps false dichotomy, where inaccurate or poorly evidenced statements seem to be automatically denounced as "lies." Most people are not mustache-twirling villains out to deceive. Most reviewers and most boutique high end manufacturers come from essentially the same place: a love of music/audio. But there are different epistemologies going on in the world.
Some people put more value in objective verification - e.g. measurements, or careful controls for listening tests - others put more stock in subjective impressions. The latter are led to all manner of inaccurate conclusions and theories. "I put a new AC cable in my system, I think it sounded different, so therefore it did change the sound!" But it tends to be the same type of error that leads people to many alternative medicines, or new age therapies, or pseudo-scientific ideas. Earnest mistakes. To paraphrase Hanlon's famous razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by poor methodology.

Cheers,
 

Balle Clorin

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Maybe it is time so sell my Revels and buy a Klipsch or PMC??

Capture.JPG

L & R Audiometry
60 years of age and and 45 year since that outdoor toilet got dynamite blasted 30feet away from me...' everything above 10-12kk is gone. But I still enjoy music, but I measure alot :)

I suspect some brands deliberately lift the treble to compensate for their older and presumably richer customer targets- Like Audiovector expensive lines. They are horribly bright even for my old ears
 
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krabapple

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To paraphrase Hanlon's famous razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by poor methodology.

Cheers,

To continue to promote a methodology after its poorness has been repeatedly explained to you, could be seen as a form of malice.
 

maverickronin

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To paraphrase Hanlon's famous razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by poor methodology.

To continue to promote a methodology after its poorness has been repeatedly explained to you, could be seen as a form of malice.

To quote Hanlon's original razor....

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
 

MattHooper

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To continue to promote a methodology after its poorness has been repeatedly explained to you, could be seen as a form of malice.

Nah, that's the same bad move I think.

Most of us hold mistaken notions, and it's not out of malice.

If you have ever debated a subject and not moved your opinion you no doubt think it's simply because you are right, the better argument is on your side. But note: that feeling of "believing you are right" is essentially the same, psychologically, as "believing you are right" whether you happen to be wrong or not. That's why human beings go around believing many contrasting ideas not out of malice, but simply because they think they are right, through mere mistakes in reasoning. And "pointing out the mistakes" is often insufficient to actually make people notice the mistakes. (And also...YOU could be wrong too).

I've known and interacted with countless people, audiophiles and otherwise, who have come to conclusions on what seems to me obviously flawed reasoning and methodologies. I don't find them psychologically any more "malicious" than anyone else. Human biased thinking just works that way.
 

Andysu

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I didn't waste time watching, but one question: does this guy distinguish between "specs" and "measurements"? I might agree regarding the former...
i even asked andrew robinson ,why he doesn't use test gear . his reply well you can guess it . waste of time .
 
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