DO SPECS REALLY MATTER in Audio? - Understanding Speaker Measurements!

[hardisj]

Gene messaged me and told me he didn't see my replies to this video. I thought that was odd. I signed out and sure enough... I don't see my replies either. Apparently this dude has blocked my replies from appearing on his channel.

So the question is... what about these two replies (one made yesterday; the bottom made a few hours ago) are so bad? Yea, I pointed out what he said in the video is wrong and a mischaracterization of the truth of measurements. But I was very cordial.

Total loss of respect for this guy now. I think I'll make sure people know what they are dealing with.

You guys feel free to ask him why he is blocking pertinent, friendly disagreements.


Reply from yesterday:

Reply earlier today:

 

[Koeitje]

What I find amazing is why anyone cares one whit what these internet "reviewer's" think?? It's really quite funny, start a YouTube channel and you are up and ready to go.

Rob

The problem is that it influences people that don't know or understand the science. These people end up buying gear that is too expensive or simply not high fidelity. Its bad for the Hifi as a whole to have people peddle nonsense.

His replies to Amir and Sean also show he is just making sure he can still advertise snake oil products. Its kinda sad really.

 

[Pharos]

Many people are; too lazy to do the research themselves, and also want to feel important by getting 'strokes' (recognition and importance), from the interaction with others.

Hence the abundance of mobile phone usage and texting to speak and send inane and vacuous rubbish.

 

[sweetchaos]

FYI...

How to block YouTube channels on a computer

Spoiler

This will only take a minute if you already know the username of the person you want to block.

1. Go to youtube.com, login if necessary, and search for the account you want to block.

2. Click on their account and toggle over to "About" in the toolbar beneath their channel art, also known as a banner (which lives at the top of their channel's page).

Go the About page in top right of someone's profile.
3. Click the flag on the right side of the page and select "Block user."

Click the flag and select Block user.
4. Choose "Submit."

That user will be blocked.

How to block YouTube channels on a mobile device

Spoiler

Blocking users on YouTube is relatively the same on mobile as it is on desktop:

1. Open the YouTube app on your iPhone or Android and sign into your account, if necessary.

2. Tap the search icon at the top of the screen and input the name of the user you want to block.

3. When you see their account pop up, tap it to view their main account page.

4. Tap the three dots in the top-right corner of the screen and select "Block user."

Choose to Block the user.

 

[Ericglo]

I want to thank Sean for participating in this forum. There are so many things going on in this forum that I think are “right” when there seems to be so much anti-science in the general public. Let me rephrase that a little. There is so much going on that is anti-science if it doesn’t confirm your own views. This forum is just such a refreshing breath of fresh air.

I ran into this with my late father about fifteen to twenty years ago, If the science confirmed his beliefs then it was correct. If the science differed from his beliefs then it was obviously wrong. I dubbed it "Science of Convenience". My father was a smart man, but couldn't make that leap of letting the science take you to the truth.


After giving this guy some thought (and probably more than I should), I am guessing he doesn't care. He has an audience and wants to say and do things differently to appeal to said audience and others like them. He probably feels he would get lost in the crowd going with the mainstream. Plus, validating measurements limits his stature and the weight of his subjective reviews.

As has been known for decades, If you ignore him then it reduces his exposure. Unfortunately, it is probably to late with Andrew and some others like him. He has traction and the best one can do is point people in the right direction. This NPR Short Wave podcast has some good tips.
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/21/860219481/how-to-correct-misinformation-according-to-science

 

[Sean Olive]

Couldn't agree with this more. I tend to think there is large group of folks who think they prefer non-neutral speakers, but actually do, at least under blind conditions.

Off topic question:

How often do y'all update your blind test playlist? or do y'all just keep what you have(since it works)? I like to setup blind tests with friends and family from time to time, and I've been doing those tests with mostly the Harman published playlist, but recently I've been trying to find newer material to add to it to make it more "current".

I've been using this playlist lately to compare headphones, and evaluate various things. Some of the tunes are on current Harman/Revel playlists and are generally well known in audio circles.

The Tom's Dinner tune I added recently for some upmixer tests where I wanted a simple mono signal to see how the upmixer handled it. Apparently it was an instrumental track in the development of MP3.

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/cbf233f7-2894-4451-9c2d-4e916d1264e2

 

[Sean Olive]

I visit the Harman facility as well when I lived in Valencia CA. My neighbor had a good friend that worked for JBL and he gave us a small tour. It was probably around 2004-2005 (don't remember exactly) but we were shown a room where JBL breaks in or tests their subwoofer drivers for 24-48 hours (I think). We had to wear ear-protecting headphones to enter that space. I also saw (probably) the Revel cubicles and at that time the first 3d printer that was maybe used for the tweeter's waveguide (not sure). I was told not to discuss this with anyone . Saw the reference revel salon 1 that was used to measure other speakers FR. It was "naked" without those side panels. JBL guy just showed us briefly the listening room. He also showed us some JBL speakers (in the warehouse type of space) for the professional theaters and told us that Martin Sheen has a system like it that in his house. It was a great tour, loved it and wish I could do it again!

I don't even visit the facility right now except to participate in some listening tests Only a small essential team are there and visitors are not allowed.

Maybe when things settle down it can be arranged.

 

[Sean Olive]

Thanks for the shout out, and I am planning to focus my audio related reviews more on home cinema surround because (to me at least) it's an easier fish to fry. The Genelec 8050b I sent Amir is part of my 5.4.2 Atmos / 10.1 Auro 3D surround setup to review movie mixes. Reviewing individual speakers (and components) is hell because I completely agree that you need real tools like what @hardisj and ASR have for baseline objectivity. Then we have the subjective listening assessment which is completely personal preference and not useful in the context of the 100 other similar reviews, and totally becomes victim to fanboy angry posts "you clueless hack, I love my Bose and I'm a professional bassoon player at the Met". At the end of the day, it would be easier for me to just send Amir speakers to measure/review, then bring him on YT to discuss his impressions.

On the other hand, I can provide useful subjective assessments of Atmos mixes as long as I have a respectable system designed to accurately place all these 3D audio objects. This space is also a little less crowded, less combative and a bit more fun.

Are you doing assessments of ATMOS Music mixes as well? I've been listening to those lately as part of an immersive audio research project. Where do I go to read these reviews? Thanks

 

[MZKM]

Gene messaged me and told me he didn't see my replies to this video. I thought that was odd. I signed out and sure enough... I don't see my replies either. Apparently this dude has blocked my replies from appearing on his channel.

So the question is... what about these two replies (one made yesterday; the bottom made a few hours ago) are so bad? Yea, I pointed out what he said in the video is wrong and a mischaracterization of the truth of measurements. But I was very cordial.

Total loss of respect for this guy now. I think I'll make sure people know what they are dealing with.

You guys feel free to ask him why he is blocking pertinent, friendly disagreements.


Reply from yesterday:

View attachment 111351




Reply earlier today:

View attachment 111350

Man, it’d be flabbergasted to the point of finding it funny if I wrote ~10 paragraphs only for it to be blocked.

 

[TimVG]

Gene messaged me and told me he didn't see my replies to this video. I thought that was odd. I signed out and sure enough... I don't see my replies either. Apparently this dude has blocked my replies from appearing on his channel.

So the question is... what about these two replies (one made yesterday; the bottom made a few hours ago) are so bad? Yea, I pointed out what he said in the video is wrong and a mischaracterization of the truth of measurements. But I was very cordial.

Total loss of respect for this guy now. I think I'll make sure people know what they are dealing with.

You guys feel free to ask him why he is blocking pertinent, friendly disagreements.


Reply from yesterday:

View attachment 111351




Reply earlier today:

View attachment 111350

That's just incredibly disrespectful of him. I've never seen you to be anything else than respectful, but honest nonetheless, and someone who puts a lot of time and effort into the audio community. I hope you'll be able to reach his size of audience one day! There's just so much bad information out there, much of it not willfully but rather of people not knowing better. Some of it even coming from professionals (mixing & mastering pros), which again doesn't help 'our' position.

 

[Spocko]

Many people are; too lazy to do the research themselves, and also want to feel important by getting 'strokes' (recognition and importance), from the interaction with others.
Hence the abundance of mobile phone usage and texting to speak and send inane and vacuous rubbish.

And thus the popularity of Twitter. It's hit-and-run communication, the unfiltered thoughts of the masses getting from point A to point B faster today than at any point in history. This is why mind reading was made illegal during the Inquisition.

 

[Spocko]

Are you doing assessments of ATMOS Music mixes as well? I've been listening to those lately as part of an immersive audio research project. Where do I go to read these reviews? Thanks

Yes, this is something that is becoming more popular and something I plan explore as cinema Atmos mixes have left me deeply disappointed. I hope that music producers will put in the time necessary for Atmos music because Atmos movie mixes show how little money was allocated to home theater blu ray releases.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Total loss of respect for this guy now. I think I'll make sure people know what they are dealing with.

You guys feel free to ask him why he is blocking pertinent, friendly disagreements.

You had respect for him to begin with?
It's obvious why he blocked your replies. His fanboys would read your well thought out replies and might be inclined to unsubscribe from his channel.

I don't think there's much point in getting into (or even attempting to) a back/forth with someone on their own YT channel.
That's a place where they hold forth and spread the word. Discussion is usually not appreciated.

Dave.

 

[Laserjock]

I just read it and sent him my regards. Very thorough and he explains well the meaning of the measurements on sound quality.. I just got the Revel C226Be to replace the C208 and the F226Be would the logical replacement for the F206's I have.

There’s a C226Be ?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I did NOT listen to a random YouTuber saying good this one speaker is...and "how good it can sound with anything".

Back when I bought my main pair of speakers I did have internet access but via a dial up modem, so no Youtube disinformation to worry about!
I ordered a pair of Devialet Phantoms when they were announced but because I had had a discussion about their DSP with their chief engineer who I know and it intrigued me.
I think it is worrying that so many people turn to the internet for info and advice nowadays when anything goes and it isn't easy to find data as opposed to unsupported opinion there.

 

[Sean Olive]

There’s a C226Be ?

I'm sorry i meant C426Be.

 

[Laserjock]

I'm sorry i meant C426Be.

Darn, thought I stumbled on another option for a smaller Be center in the lineup.

 

[a-gainer]

According to this guy, speaker measurements are not good indicators of sound quality because of other variables not accounted for in measurements that influence what we like including our hearing, our taste, our listening rooms, our program material.
…
This should be a "fun" thread.

O/k, just for fun. What he is talking about are individual preferences and personal circumstances. In what is a "Preference Rating", a score that I think You developed, any different? It is based on a statistical average of preferences of some test panel. But literally, statistics discards information. By summing up the grand total, averaging by the number of, and whatever techniques more, knowledge is lost.

Just kidding. Statistics reveals a different kind of knowledge in the first place. What Harman did with the Toole/Olive investigations was a great achievement, and it still is. But, it only describes what a manufacturer should aim for. If the manufacturer targets the market, then better go for the bulls eye in the very middle.

This target is, thanks to spinorama, very well defined: all people have a quite similar taste, right, including sound engineers and some musicians. Recordings are mixed and fine-tuned with good judgement at work in more or less average rooms … using, today, more or less the same speakers, spinorama wise. Aiming for "good sound" in average listening environments, including motorcars and cell phones. Circle of confusion broken. No irony here, that was exactly needed! The role of Harman in this process, as a commercial giant, is mmh, but the result is still highly appreciated.

Or, as to say it the other way round: what if that guy is average, his room is average and his musical taste is average too? When talking about his choices, he would basically say what Harman says. Go for the average. But what if the guy is not, but the room is neither, but the two compensate and the result is average? Still o/k, or laughable? Or he has a knack for the phillysound and, of course, modern speakers would go nuts with that? He would probably prefer good ol' JBLs form the 70ies, and be out?

My two cents - to design regular, predictable speakers, following an actually full set of common specifications is a no-brainer. So everyone would use the same, spec wise, measurement wise. But the Harman tilt for instance is just legacy. Harman found out what people settled on with time, unplanned, while looking for something else - neutrality?. They missed - measurable - neutrality by some margin, right?

 

[Sean Olive]

O/k, just for fun. What he is talking about are individual preferences and personal circumstances. In what is a "Preference Rating", a score that I think You developed, any different? It is based on a statistical average of preferences of some test panel. But literally, statistics discards information. By summing up the grand total, averaging by the number of, and whatever techniques more, knowledge is lost.

Just kidding. Statistics reveals a different kind of knowledge in the first place. What Harman did with the Toole/Olive investigations was a great achievement, and it still is. But, it only describes what a manufacturer should aim for. If the manufacturer targets the market, then better go for the bulls eye in the very middle.

This target is, thanks to spinorama, very well defined: all people have a quite similar taste, right, including sound engineers and some musicians. Recordings are mixed and fine-tuned with good judgement at work in more or less average rooms … using, today, more or less the same speakers, spinorama wise. Aiming for "good sound" in average listening environments, including motorcars and cell phones. Circle of confusion broken. No irony here, that was exactly needed! The role of Harman in this process, as a commercial giant, is mmh, but the result is still highly appreciated.

Or, as to say it the other way round: what if that guy is average, his room is average and his musical taste is average too? When talking about his choices, he would basically say what Harman says. Go for the average. But what if the guy is not, but the room is neither, but the two compensate and the result is average? Still o/k, or laughable? Or he has a knack for the phillysound and, of course, modern speakers would go nuts with that? He would probably prefer good ol' JBLs form the 70ies, and be out?

My two cents - to design regular, predictable speakers, following an actually full set of common specifications is a no-brainer. So everyone would use the same, spec wise, measurement wise. But the Harman tilt for instance is just legacy. Harman found out what people settled on with time, unplanned, while looking for something else - neutrality?. They missed - measurable - neutrality by some margin, right?

Not sure what you mean by the "Harman Tilt"? Are you referring to the predicted in-room curve (PIR) ? That is simply a mathematical weighting of different curves in the spinorama that seem to fall closely with what is typically measured in rooms.

If you are referring to some in-room curve for the purposes of room correction, I'm pretty sure the tilt is simply the PIR with some bass adjustment, that varies +- 3 dB depending on taste and program. Did we come up with it? No, but we did do some testing of different room corrections systems and found out that the 10 dB per octave tilt was preferred over some of the other target curves, including FLAT. We've also done some research where people adjusted the bass and treble of a neutral speaker that was adjusted to a flat in-room curve and on average they adjust the treble and bass back to the 10 dB tilt. It told us that the adjustment only needs to be done to the bass because the direct sound above 300 Hz is flat and most people prefer that.

 

[Robh3606]

The problem is that it influences people that don't know or understand the science. These people end up buying gear that is too expensive or simply not high fidelity. Its bad for the Hifi as a whole to have people peddle nonsense.

His replies to Amir and Sean also show he is just making sure he can still advertise snake oil products. Its kinda sad really.

Hello

I understand the point you are making but this is just an extension of non science based periodical's. This is nothing new just more accessible. This is right up there with people putting up videos so you can judge how their system sounds. Limited to no value.

Rob