Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[siggen]

Hello @PeteXian
Sorry for the delayed response, I am vacationing. I have McIntosh Amplifiers that are rated for 300 WPC and I find the performance exceeded my expectations. The X4800H has performed very well with no audible noise detectable to my ears with or without the External Amps. I prefer the Amps as I will drive loud volume performances for the dynamic output of a Live Performance recording or Theater Production.

The McIntosh Amps are especially well suited for this type of performance with the Power Guard circuitry that protects the Speakers when the THD exceeds 1% at High Output allowing the Amp circuit to maintain performance without Clipping. I've used external Amps for performance with my Home Theater and AVR's as Pre-Amp consistently with great results.

Do you feel any difference in dynamics, base performance, high frequency sharpness etc when comparing internal amps to your Mcintosh in 2 channel mode ? What would cause the difference ?

 

[dlaloum]

Do you feel any difference in dynamics, base performance, high frequency sharpness etc when comparing internal amps to your Mcintosh in 2 channel mode ? What would cause the difference ?

Amp differences in almost all cases have to do with the pairing of amp and speakers - and the requirements of the speakers.

If the speakers are high efficiency (100db+ SPL/wm) - then very little power is needed
If the speakers have dramatic impedance dips at crossovers or specific drivers (say 2ohm or less!) - then a number of things can vary - is the amp stable into very low impedances (not all are... and it can then generate distortion) - can the power supply provide the necessary current (not power!) to feed that low impedance... and if driving at reasonably high levels - can the heatsinks and amp circuits handle the increased current/heat load

If the amps are operating within their designed performance envelope... in terms of power, current, impedance being driven etc... then all halfway decent amps will sound the same.

Typically beasts like the Mcintosh amps, will have a wider performance envelope, and a greater capability to handle difficult speakers.

With both amps driving easy to drive 8 ohm, reasonably efficient speakers - double blind tests have shown no difference between a wide range of different amps. - ie: all amps being tested are within their design performance envelope when driving these speakers.

What I am trying to say is - the first indicator of "amp sound" difference, is likely to be how difficult the speakers are to drive.

And the differences, when present, are in almost all cases, indicators of different forms of "misbehaviour" (ie: distortion) when driven outside of their design envelope. (and yes in those cases amps will sound different, as different designs "fail" in different ways)

 

[RF Air]

Do you feel any difference in dynamics, base performance, high frequency sharpness etc when comparing internal amps to your Mcintosh in 2 channel mode ? What would cause the difference ?

With moderate and design performance levels, I have not noticed a difference with the AVR Amps driving my 4 Ohm rated Speakers. They are Speakers that are Large with 6 Drivers for each Speaker. As I mentioned, I have used performance level volumes that drive the Speakers that are designed for High Output and the McIntosh Amps have the capability to deliver the output without effort or distortion

I also have 2 powered Subwoofers that are driven independently with each channel which adds to the high level performance outputs that make for the live dynamic volumes I occasionally use. With the Audyssey Calibration, I find the Denon soars with great amplified response. The challenge is achieving Subwoofer settings to balance the Bass Low End Frequencies because it's not a simple set-up with the REL Hi Level Input that is used for driving the Subs. However Audyssey with the Denon has made the job easier.

I think the answer is the Denon stands very well by itself and can deliver for filling the room with balanced bass and brightness. The McIntosh Amps gives me greater dynamic output for the times I need to push the system into a high output performance that moves the air and fill the room with excitement. The Speakers are capable of being driven for this kind of performance, more than what the Denon was designed to Amplify at the levels I achieve with the McIntosh Amps.

 

[peng]

With moderate and design performance levels, I have not noticed a difference with the AVR Amps driving my 4 Ohm rated Speakers. They are Speakers that are Large with 6 Drivers for each Speaker. As I mentioned, I have used performance level volumes that drive the Speakers that are designed for High Output and the McIntosh Amps have the capability to deliver the output without effort or distortion

I also have 2 powered Subwoofers that are driven independently with each channel which adds to the high level performance outputs that make for the live dynamic volumes I occasionally use. With the Audyssey Calibration, I find the Denon soars with great amplified response. The challenge is achieving Subwoofer settings to balance the Bass Low End Frequencies because it's not a simple set-up with the REL Hi Level Input that is used for driving the Subs. However Audyssey with the Denon has made the job easier.

I think the answer is the Denon stands very well by itself and can deliver for filling the room with balanced bass and brightness. The McIntosh Amps gives me greater dynamic output for the times I need to push the system into a high output performance that moves the air and fill the room with excitement. The Speakers are capable of being driven for this kind of performance, more than what the Denon was designed to Amplify at the levels I achieve with the McIntosh Amps.

I have always been impressed with the way McIntosh specifies their power output specs, still far from what I would like to see, but much better than many other manufacturer's.

McIntosh power amps typically would give you the rated output into both 8 and 4 ohms, for example, the Mc1kW:

• Power Output per Channel1200 Watts @ 2, 4 or 8 Ohms

That's no double down for sure but is at least much more believable than those who claimed double down numbers. Being a real beast class and is a monoblock, expectedly their same output principle extends down to 2 Ohms. You can hardly find another (surely there are a few if one looks hard enough) manufacturers that offer such impressive output specs, that is, same regardless of 8, 4, or 2 ohms!!

For AVRs, I would emphasize again, the only safe assumption one can make, is that they can drive 2 ohms load too, but subject to the following:

1) Their rated output is based on "continuously" driven, 2 channel simultaneously.
2) Without the use of any impedance selectors.
3) half down, from say the X4800H's rated 125 W 8 ohms, to about 62.5 W 4 ohms, and 31.25 W 2 ohms etc.
4) Their protective scheme would not shutdown if it senses the load impedance drop below a certain point.

So, if one uses speakers that dip to 2 ohms, or even flat at 2 ohms, the X4800H can drive them safely, as long as the actual power requirement is less than 31.25 W. That is, pretty much all midrange AVRs such as the X4800H, can drive 4 ohm speakers quite safely, and without degradation in performance vs stronger amps, as long as the user's actual power needs (average) do not exceed about 60 W average, and do not dip below to near 2, 3 ohms for too long. If the speaker's nominal impedance is 8 ohms, but do dip to below 4 ohms within a couple/few narrow band, then such AVRs can do the job. Except, the likes of Mr. dlaloum, would of course be better served to not rely on the math above (or any math.), but stick with his trusted and well bench measured beast class Onkyo/Integra amps, or better still, McIntosh, Krell, and a few NAD kind of amps.

 

[geekosa]

Why DACs in AVR/AVP (even high end ones) cannot match by for the SINAD of $200 DACs ?

 

[amper42]

MASI owner of Denon down over 20% this week and a new 4 year low. Hope they can turn it around or Denon is in problem territory.

 

[delta76]

Why DACs in AVR/AVP (even high end ones) cannot match by for the SINAD of $200 DACs ?

1. it is harder to do 11 or 13 channel
2. it is even harder to do it together with preamp, amp and video processing. you have to keep balancing everything and not to over budget or time.
3. they simply don't care enough. transparent DAC is not a selling point for AVR. People buy avr for convenience and feature. if you have 120 dB or 90 dB SINAD, most of their potential buyers simply do not care (the kind of people believe Marantz is better for music and Denon for movies)

 

[dave999z]

I just wish there were a better way to integrate a multi-channel AVR and a 2.x channel music setup. I really only care about pristine audio when listening to music. For movies, AVR performance is fine. Adding a front L&R power amp to the 4800 seems easy enough (and required if you want to hear all 13 channels). But if you want bass management and room correction for 2ch listening, you're still stuck using the AVR's DAC. Or could go the route of a 2-channel integrated amp with bass management that has home theater bypass for the mains and subs, something like the Parasound NewClassic 200 Integrated Amplifier & DAC (still no room correction though). However, the separate Parasound preamp and amplifier tested here didn't score so well.

 

[jhwalker]

I just wish there were a better way to integrate a multi-channel AVR and a 2.x channel music setup. I really only care about pristine audio when listening to music. For movies, AVR performance is fine. Adding a front L&R power amp to the 4800 seems easy enough (and required if you want to hear all 13 channels). But if you want bass management and room correction for 2ch listening, you're still stuck using the AVR's DAC. Or could go the route of a 2-channel integrated amp with bass management that has home theater bypass for the mains and subs, something like the Parasound NewClassic 200 Integrated Amplifier & DAC (still no room correction though). However, the separate Parasound preamp and amplifier tested here didn't score so well.

Same. I've used AVRs for a long time now, and really can't see changing to something else given ease of switching, video / surround sound support, etc., but would love to be able to bypass the receiver's DAC, both for stereo and multichannel music.

As far as I can tell, that would require me to get into multiple separates, which is really more complexity than I want

 

[pogo]

still no room correction though

NAD C389 or C399 with BluOS/Dirac Live module and analog bypass

 

[dave999z]

NAD C389 or C399 with BluOS/Dirac Live module and analog bypass

Kind of surprised no USB digital input on that. For me, connecting an iPad is one of the only reasonable ways to get a digital Apple Music hi-res lossless signal into a receiver.

 

[ban25]

NAD C389 or C399 with BluOS/Dirac Live module and analog bypass

Dirac Room Correction is done in the digital domain, so there is no bypassing the DAC in the C389/C399 if you intend to use Dirac.

The real answer is: stop worrying about the DAC, you can't hear it anyway

 

[pogo]

Dirac Room Correction is done in the digital domain, so there is no bypassing the DAC in the C389/C399 if you intend to use Dirac.

Correct, therefore DL for stereo and bypass mode for AVR multichannel correction.

 

[ban25]

Correct, therefore DL for stereo and bypass mode for AVR multichannel correction.

Ah yes I see, just use the C389 as an all-in-one 2-channel solution, with AVR in HTB mode, and then use the C389's amps for FL/FR. Makes sense.

 

[EWL5]

Kind of surprised no USB digital input on that. For me, connecting an iPad is one of the only reasonable ways to get a digital Apple Music hi-res lossless signal into a receiver.

Something doesn't sound right. You're able to get lossless audio over a digital cable that has no encryption (like HDCP for HDMI)?

 

[jbattman1016]

Dirac Room Correction is done in the digital domain, so there is no bypassing the DAC in the C389/C399 if you intend to use Dirac.

The real answer is: stop worrying about the DAC, you can't hear it anyway

We can't hear the DAC, but we can feel it.

 

[dave999z]

Something doesn't sound right. You're able to get lossless audio over a digital cable that has no encryption (like HDCP for HDMI)?What I'm doing is:

What I'm doing is:
Apple Music app running on iPad or iPhone --> Lightning to USB adapter --> USB cable --> receiver (in my case an Outlaw RR2160)

My receiver doesn't tell me the sample rate and bit depth, but I believe (could be wrong) this method just sends out whatever quality the source is. When you go into the settings for the Music app on your iPhone (which you get to via general settings, not through the app itself), if you select hi-res lossless audio quality, it tells you "External Hardware Suggested. To play content in Hi-Res Lossless at full resolution, you will need an external digital-to-analog converter." Using the Lightning-to-USB adapter, my receiver becomes that external DAC.

BTW if you have an iPad pro (and perhaps newer iPhones) you don't even need the adapter, just use a USB-C cable.

Unfortunately there's no way to do this wirelessly at hi res.

 

[pogo]

Do you think the external amps made a noticeable difference? What amps are you using?

It depends on the program material and the speakers used:

 

[susanstone]

I have a driving vehicle analogy about power amp and speakers.
* Power amp is like the engine in the vehicle. The power it can deliver and how fast it can deliver is fixed.
* Speaker efficiency is like the size of the vehicle - a small car or a big truck.
* Speaker impedance is like the road condition - uphill and downhill.
* Volume is like passengers or carried payload in the vehicle.
* Content playing is like the speed curve the vehicle need to follow.
The goal is for the vehicle to follow the speed curve as close as possible.
The measurement is to track the difference between vehicle speed and speed curve in real time. You can use a speed gun (casual listening) which has higher error of margin or do a recording of vehicle speedometer (critical listening or professional measurement) which is supposed to be accurate.

Now you can deduce how the vehicle performs in various conditions.
If you only drive a small car in a flat road with one passenger and try to follow rarely changing speed curve, you probably don't need a big engine.
If you drive a big truck on hilly road with a fully loaded shipping container and try to follow a constantly changing speed curve, you need a big engine.
Other conditions fall between these two extreme conditions.

In my opinion, two channel musical listening with only floor speakers probably needs more powerful amp than N-channel movie theater. Two channel music is constantly playing, and two speakers carry the full load. N-channel movie playing typically don't have full sound in most of time throughout the movie and the heavy load may go to subwoofer which has its own power.

 

[geekosa]

I just wish there were a better way to integrate a multi-channel AVR and a 2.x channel music setup. I really only care about pristine audio when listening to music. For movies, AVR performance is fine. Adding a front L&R power amp to the 4800 seems easy enough (and required if you want to hear all 13 channels). But if you want bass management and room correction for 2ch listening, you're still stuck using the AVR's DAC. Or could go the route of a 2-channel integrated amp with bass management that has home theater bypass for the mains and subs, something like the Parasound NewClassic 200 Integrated Amplifier & DAC (still no room correction though). However, the separate Parasound preamp and amplifier tested here didn't score so well.

In fact, that's what I'm trying to do.

I bought a LA90D from topping (which is a good amplifier with a great SINAD and with several XLR inputs). I bypass the volume control (there is a toggle for at at the back of the topping), and then I'll buy a DAC & a stereo preamp I'll also plug on the LA90D.
I just need to change the input on the LA90D to to switch from sterao electronic to AVP or the other way around.

THis way I can perfectly integrate a stereo setup inside a multichannel one (without plug/unplug cables when I switch).