Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[LTig]

Honestly the only input I care about on any AVR is HDMI, everything else is going to be rarely used. The whole point of these devices is decoding formats(Atmos, etc) that literally cannot be decoded any other way. If you don't have need for that you don't even technically need an AVR at all.

I have a different opinion. I use an AVP for music and movies, and I don't want to have the hassle of two separate audio systems. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I use SPDIF in (CD) and analog in (vinyl) much more then HDMI (bluray and Sat TV), but I also have a lot of live concert and opera bluray discs and expect excellent SQ while watching.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the response, I guess what I'm asking is whether this is the same issue as in the Arcam AV40 review and that -1dB input resolves it. So basically many AVRs can't accept 0dB input over HDMI without going crazy.

It is my guess as well that it is the same thing.

The issue is that music as you know is mixed these days at or near 0 dBFS. So the same issue can exist with real content so I don't provide this way out for manufacturers.

 

[Sancus]

It is my guess as well that it is the same thing.

The issue is that music as you know is mixed these days at or near 0 dBFS. So the same issue can exist with real content so I don't provide this way out for manufacturers.

Yeah I agree it's an issue, was just trying to understand the cause. Thanks!

I have a different opinion. I use an AVP for music and movies, and I don't want to have the hassle of two separate audio systems. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I use SPDIF in (CD) and analog in (vinyl) much more then HDMI (bluray and Sat TV), but I also have a lot of live concert and opera bluray discs and expect excellent SQ while watching.

Yeah, I know other people DO use those inputs and I think it's fine if there's time to measure them all, I just think HDMI should be the priority.

 

[amirm]

I have added limited Toslink/Coax to my testing in addition to HDMI. Beyond that, I simply cannot cover the full matrix of testing the amp with multiple inputs, and other tests. It will take all day and make the reviews hugely long. If we think there is a common problem, then I can add specific tests for it.

 

[Chromatischism]

I think this review needs a big asterisk and a disclaimer to remind people that the unit is being run beyond reference level. Almost no one does that in their home. The same was true of the X3600H to which comparisons were made. Therefore, most users would never notice the issues called out here.

Always appreciate the work of Amir but let's keep our heads on level and not burn down Denon HQ over this review.

 

[Fillius]

Does anyone know how the USB input of Denon AVR's typically measure?

I intend to use my Roon ROCK via USB into my X6700 (when it arrives). I'm wondering if I would achieve better 2 channel performance with a recommended USB DAC into the Denon's analogue inputs (using pure-direct)?

I am using the standard Intel NUC power supply, not an upgraded linear one. So I don't expect the USB output to be 'clean'.

 

[IslandMD]

Does anyone know how the USB input of Denon AVR's typically measure?

I intend to use my Roon ROCK via USB into my X6700 (when it arrives). I'm wondering if I would achieve better 2 channel performance with a recommended USB DAC into the Denon's analogue inputs (using pure-direct)?

I am using the standard Intel NUC power supply, not an upgraded linear one. So I don't expect the USB output to be 'clean'.

As I mentioned in an earlier post. A good DAC (Topping D70 in my case) into my Denon's analogue input using pure direct sounds superb. Equals the sonic quality of the DAC directly into my stereo integrated amp.

One of my complaints of these AVRs is that almost none of them have a USB input.

 

[Chromatischism]

As I mentioned in an earlier post. A good DAC (Topping D70 in my case) into my Denon's analogue input using pure direct sounds superb. Equals the sonic quality of the DAC directly into my stereo integrated amp.

That eliminates multi-channel use and room correction. What would you do if you needed those? I'm pretty sure HDMI is the only game in town at this point.

 

[amirm]

I think this review needs a big asterisk and a disclaimer to remind people that the unit is being run beyond reference level. Almost no one does that in their home. The same was true of the X3600H to which comparisons were made. Therefore, most users would never notice the issues called out here.

What reference level? Output volage on pre-out? Is so, reference level as defined by Sony/Philips when they brought out the first consumer digital device was 2 volts. They did this to allow for higher dynamic range as otherwise you would be seriously fighting the noise floor to get down to 1/16 bits. In that sense, higher output voltage is a friend of a DAC designer, not enemy.

AVR companies set these levels based on the internal gain of their amps. That is OK if they don't allow an external pre-out. Because once they do, then the reference level is out of their control. It is whatever the external amp requires to reach its max and peak power. What produces that power level in the external amp is then the reference.

I provide sweeps anyway for a range of output levels:

As you see I am very clear about the optimal output here being 1.6 volts. No "asterisks" is needed. Even at that optimal output, SINAD is around 86 dB or about 14 bits effective number of bits or way short of what we should be seeing. Since I report the best case output with the amp disconnected, this is actually the final rating in the table:

So overall picture is the same.

 

[IslandMD]

That eliminates multi-channel use and room correction. What would you do if you needed those? I'm pretty sure HDMI is the only game in town at this point.

You are absolutely correct. This is just a "work around" to get great 2 channel performance. Multichannel is still limited by the HDMI/digital subsystem.

 

[Chromatischism]

An absolute volume setting of 82.5 would be a relative setting of +2.5 on the master volume of the AVR. That would be calibrated to produce 107.5 dB at the listening position. It is my understanding that it is when you approach 0 on the master volume that you hit the 2 volt mark. Is that not correct?

I do appreciate the clarification of the rating based on the best case of 1.6 volts.

 

[Fillius]

As I mentioned in an earlier post. A good DAC (Topping D70 in my case) into my Denon's analogue input using pure direct sounds superb. Equals the sonic quality of the DAC directly into my stereo integrated amp.

One of my complaints of these AVRs is that almost none of them have a USB input.

That's great thanks, I was looking at the Topping D50S for this reason. Or alternatively, a Roon endpoint/DAC with analogue out.

However, given that the X4700 and X6700 do have USB input, and are 'Roon Tested', I thought that might be a cheaper option, depending on performance.

Unless I'm mistaken, it should also be able to playback 5.1 mixes too, which a 2 channel DAC won't.

Using USB rather than the analogue input would also give me the option of having the Audessey room correction enabled without having to digitise the analogue input.

 

[IslandMD]

That's great thanks, I was looking at the Topping D50S for this reason. Or alternatively, a Roon endpoint/DAC with analogue out.

However, given that the X4700 and X6700 do have USB input, and are 'Roon Tested', I thought that might be a cheaper option, depending on performance.

Unless I'm mistaken, it should also be able to playback 5.1 mixes too, which a 2 channel DAC won't.

Using USB rather than the analogue input would also give me the option of having the Audessey room correction enabled without having to digitise the analogue input.

Unfortunately, a USB input would still be subjected to the AVR's substandard digital subsystem and probably would not sound as good as an external DAC into an analogue input in pure direct.

 

[amirm]

An absolute volume setting of 82.5 would be a relative setting of +2.5 on the master volume of the AVR. That would be calibrated to produce 107.5 dB at the listening position.

No, that is not it. The AVR cannot determine your reference level with any speaker or any seating position.

The idea of reference level comes from Dolby and reference level of mixing for movies. If you listen at 0 dB, it is supposed to be as loud as they intended. There is no such reference for music so that concept is not there in 2-channel world anyway.

It is true that the AVR may have optimized its gain for that output level. Then again, maybe not.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yes, that is for movie reference level, which music does not have. Some day...

However, once your AVR is calibrated to reference, that volume level (or voltage) applies to all content, right?

 

[IslandMD]

That's great thanks, I was looking at the Topping D50S for this reason. Or alternatively, a Roon endpoint/DAC with analogue out.

However, given that the X4700 and X6700 do have USB input, and are 'Roon Tested', I thought that might be a cheaper option, depending on performance.

Unless I'm mistaken, it should also be able to playback 5.1 mixes too, which a 2 channel DAC won't.

Using USB rather than the analogue input would also give me the option of having the Audessey room correction enabled without having to digitise the analogue input.

You got me excited for a minute so I had to check to see of Denon had finally added a USB-B input. Unfortunately, I can't see one on the X4700 or X6700. As has been the case for a long time the only USB input is USB-A which allows for playing files from a USB memory device (page 103 of the manual). In order to use these Denons as USB DACs (connected to a streamer or computer) you would need a USB-B or USB Micro-B input which is not present. The only digital inputs other than HDMI are network (DLNA), optical and coax.

BTW, the only non-exotic AVRs that come to mind with a USB-B input are the Emotivas (XMC-1, XMC-2 and RMC-1). There might be others but for some strange reason the non-boutique Japanese brands never seem to have them. The Emotiva AVRs can work like USB DACs.

 

[A-Shah]

How does it hold up in noise parameters compared to to it's predecessor The Denon 4500H , just a couple of days before the aoonouncements of the the new model Denon model AVR's I ordered a 3600H the Amazon Seller sent me a 4500H ! plus Heos 3 for the same price I seem to be pretty satisfied with it as it is 8k TV are going to be smart TV so why would I care for a 8K AVR receiver for now as I am using mine as a Pre-pro am I to understand one can disconnect the internal amps on 4500H ? I have 60 days to return the unit and get the newer model !

 

[SKBubba]

However, given that the X4700 and X6700 do have USB input, and are 'Roon Tested', I thought that might be a cheaper option, depending on performance.

If I'm not mistaken, the USB input is for a phone or external drive/memory stick with files on it, not for USB audio playback via computer. Also, "roon tested" is simply airplay, not the full roon RAAT protocol. I does have spotify connect, though. And heos!

 

[Chromatischism]

How does it hold up in noise parameters compared to to it's predecessor The Denon 4500H , just a couple of days before the aoonouncements of the the new model Denon model AVR's I ordered a 3600H the Amazon Seller sent me a 4500H ! plus Heos 3 for the same price I seem to be pretty satisfied with it as it is 8k TV are going to be smart TV so why would I care for a 8K AVR receiver for now as I am using mine as a Pre-pro am I to understand one can disconnect the internal amps on 4500H ? I have 60 days to return the unit and get the newer model !

I bet the 4500 and the 3600 are very close to the same. I could be wrong...these assumptions are dangerous.

Nice score on the 4500! It's a great AVR. I think it's worth it over the 3600. Right now there is little difference in price between the two when buying refurb.

If you are going to use external amps for your front L and R, just set the AVR amp assign to 11.1 channel mode, and turn ECO mode to ON if just doing 2-channel.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Theoretically, good engineering, as a product of better engineers, should result in increased efficiency [less time, not more], better reliability [reduced repair costs], and improved product reputation [increased sales].
I doubt that Kia and Hyundai needed to employ Ferrari engineers in order to make a reliable vehicle.

They hired a couple BMW engineers for improving their engines.