Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[NoCoYeti]

This Denon AVR is the true proverbial "Kitchen Sink"!
View attachment 240827
What Chief Twit was figuratively referring to, a few days ago, holds true for above statement.

Are you referring to my comment about the 4800? Some posted that it had been pulled from the site.

 

[pseudoid]

Are you referring to my comment about the 4800? Some posted that it had been pulled from the site.

No, but it would apply to the 4800 as well equally if it measures equally.
I am guessing the 4800 probably is even a bigger kitchen-sink to justify the additional $700 mark-up.

 

[NoCoYeti]

No, but it would apply to the 4800 as well equally if it measures equally.
I am guessing the 4800 probably is even a bigger kitchen-sink to justify the additional $700 mark-up.

I am sure a large part of the markup is due to inflation (COVID/Supply chain issues) the rest is the new ownership. It is what it is unfortunately.

 

[amper42]

I bought the Denon 4500 for $899 in early 2020.
Then I bought the Denon 4700 for $1699 in late 2020
Now they want me to pay $2499 for the inferior measuring Denon 4800 in 2022? Not happening.
That's a 278% price increase in 2 years. No one can blame that on inflation. The downgraded DAC is icing on the cake.

FYI - The 4800 is back at Denon.com

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[DMill]

For $1600 it has 4 sub outs. Which, I believe, is a first at this price point. I know some AVR’s in this price point only have one — I’m looking at you NAD 758 V3i

​

4 sub outs is great when you get the basics correct. A key fob trunk opener on a base level Hyundai is cool too

 

[GaryH]

Oh I assume you mean the percentage graph, lol, I'm pretty sure they're very inaccurate below 0.1% due to the size of the lines. Anyway, a better example may be the KH 420 which is specifically called out as having >70dB SINAD.

Great, now consider that assuming a JND of 0.1 dB is extremely generous to the opposing argument, and the actual JND is likely higher, pushing the threshold for speaker distortion even lower in order for DAC/amp distortion to have any audible effect when combined with the former. (The 0.1 dB figure comes from some evidence a 0.1 dB/octave spectral tilt is audible as Floyd Toole says in his book, but spectral tilts are changes our ears are most sensitive to. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence of a JND for distortion as low as 0.1 dB). Also:

And of course this is not even considering absolute distortion hearing thresholds and the psychoacoustics of masking which will make the actual audible transparency threshold even more lenient.

Tests of the above described in the link in this comment put that at around -60 dB at the extreme.

Nope because this is not an important feature. DAC performance is a key feature.

Only because you've been told it is. Past a point as explained above, lower distortion numbers have no audible consequence.

If anyone is claiming distortion at -87 dB is audible, then they can demonstrate this by successfully passing a blind test with music using the excellent Distort software and Foobar's ABX Comparator component, and posting the log with verifiable checksum. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. @Mad_Economist has even done (most of) the work for you, with the last sample on this page simulating the iFi Zen DAC using Distort, which has a similar distortion profile (bit better) then the X3800H. And be sure to check out all the other samples and simulations of other worse performing DACs/amps on that page and see if you can hear their distortion. It certainly is an eye (or rather ear) opening experience as to what all these figures mean in practice when it comes to audibility.

 

[stupidvillager]

I bought the Denon 4500 for $899 in early 2020.
Then I bought the Denon 4700 for $1699 in late 2020
Now they want me to pay $2499 for the inferior measuring Denon 4800 in 2022? Not happening.
That's a 278% price increase in 2 years. No one can blame that on inflation. The downgraded DAC is icing on the cake.

Then don't buy one. But for the price, I really don't see a much better alternative than the 3800.

 

[NoCoYeti]

I bought the Denon 4500 for $899 in early 2020.
Then I bought the Denon 4700 for $1699 in late 2020
Now they want me to pay $2499 for the inferior measuring Denon 4800 in 2022? Not happening.
That's a 278% price increase in 2 years. No one can blame that on inflation. The downgraded DAC is icing on the cake.

Yeah, the price difference is a little hard to swallow but the DAC difference is inaudible.

 

[Bren Derlin]

4 sub outs is great when you get the basics correct. A key fob trunk opener on a base level Hyundai is cool too

I get the measurements part. It measured worse.
Now please let me know if there is an appreciable audible difference between the 3800 and the 3600. Otherwise the base level Hyundai Tucson is a pretty damn good value. Add a roof rack so I can carry my Swift Prospector 14 Pack into the BWCA, and I’m a happy camper. Literally.

On a side note, because I feel this needs to be stated at this point, I’m not pooing on Amir’s measurements. I get they have value. They helped steer me in a direction for my speakers, when I was getting nowhere with blindly auditioning whatever speaker was on the shelf at the local HiFi audio and electronics stores. But I still had to listen to the measured speakers before I made a final decision. It would be dumb to believe the measurement is the end-all/be-all. If that was the case, I would have just ended up with KEF R3 (heard prior to reading the and seeing the good measurements, and found them fatiguing straight away), instead of the M16.

Subjectivity is very much a part of the decision process.

 

[dlaloum]

Then don't buy one. But for the price, I really don't see a much better alternative than the 3800.

Onkyo RZ50 - has more power than the 3800... misses out on Auro, and multiple subs, but gains Dirac
Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac

Depends what features are key for you - as a multisub solution, the 3800 seems to be the entry point in the market

As a Dirac AVR with single sub... the Onkyo's are a better alternative!

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Onkyo RZ50 - has more power than the 3800... misses out on Auro, and multiple subs, but gains Dirac
Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac

Depends what features are key for you - as a multisub solution, the 3800 seems to be the entry point in the market

As a Dirac AVR with single sub... the Onkyo's are a better alternative!

And… RZ70 and RZ90 are just around the block a couple of months away possibly.

 

[stupidvillager]

Onkyo RZ50 - has more power than the 3800... misses out on Auro, and multiple subs, but gains Dirac
Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac

Depends what features are key for you - as a multisub solution, the 3800 seems to be the entry point in the market

As a Dirac AVR with single sub... the Onkyo's are a better alternative!

I have seriously considered these. But something that puts me off more than the DAC/SINAD of the 3800, is the aggressive protection circuits of the Onkyo/Integra offerings as I will not be using an external amp. Now I have heard anecdotal evidence of this not being an issue in real world settings. But it seems to cut in pretty quick in testing. And I do have multiple subs.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Great, now consider that assuming a JND of 0.1 dB is extremely generous to the opposing argument, and the actual JND is likely higher, pushing the threshold for speaker distortion even lower in order for DAC/amp distortion to have any audible effect when combined with the former. (The 0.1 dB figure comes from some evidence a 0.1 dB/octave spectral tilt is audible as Floyd Toole says in his book, but spectral tilts are changes our ears are most sensitive to. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence of a JND for distortion as low as 0.1 dB). Also:

Tests of the above described in the link in this comment put that at around -60 dB at the extreme.


Only because you've been told it is. Past a point as explained above, lower distortion numbers have no audible consequence.

If anyone is claiming distortion at -87 dB is audible, then they can demonstrate this by successfully passing a blind test with music using the excellent Distort software and Foobar's ABX Comparator component, and posting the log with verifiable checksum. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. @Mad_Economist has even done (most of) the work for you, with the last sample on this page simulating the iFi Zen DAC using Distort, which has a similar distortion profile (bit better) then the X3800H. And be sure to check out all the other samples and simulations of other worse performing DACs/amps on that page and see if you can hear their distortion. It certainly is an eye (or rather ear) opening experience as to what all these figures mean in practice when it comes to audibility.

Those links were a good read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Onkyo RZ50 - has more power than the 3800... misses out on Auro, and multiple subs, but gains Dirac
Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac

Depends what features are key for you - as a multisub solution, the 3800 seems to be the entry point in the market

As a Dirac AVR with single sub... the Onkyo's are a better alternative!

I was going to post a similar comment about the RZ50 - which certainly caught my eye. But in Amir’s testing, he noted a power handling issue (safety feature shutting off power when pushed at 6 and 4ohms). Didn’t sound like it was an issue with 8ohm loads. …Thankfully my speakers are 8Ohms.

 

[Rottmannash]

I have seriously considered these. But something that puts me off more than the DAC/SINAD of the 3800, is the aggressive protection circuits of the Onkyo/Integra offerings as I will not be using an external amp. Now I have heard anecdotal evidence of this not being an issue in real world settings. But it seems to cut in pretty quick in testing. And I do have multiple subs.

I'm still waiting to hear of an instance where the RZ50 went into protection mode in real world use...

 

[beaRA]

Onkyo RZ50 - has more power than the 3800... misses out on Auro, and multiple subs, but gains Dirac
Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac

Depends what features are key for you - as a multisub solution, the 3800 seems to be the entry point in the market

As a Dirac AVR with single sub... the Onkyo's are a better alternative!

The TX-RZ50 DAC+Amp system has a worse SINAD than the X3800H DAC+Amp system. Without DLBC, there's nothing definitive separating Dirac from Audyssey MultEQ XT32. This is coming from a TX-RZ50 owner. FWIW, I have never encountered the protection circuit issue in normal use.

 

[pseudoid]

...Integra DRX 3.4 - about the same power as 3800. with fewer channels than the RZ50, also has Dirac...
...Onkyo's

What on earth happened with Integra/Onkyo brand anyways?
I had their great (<imo) DHC-40.2 as a AV Pre/Pro when HDMIv1.4a was just released and it served me until my next TV 'demanded' to be fed by HDMIv2.0.
The Integra brand disappeared, as I was researching a replacement.
On again. Off again. I moved on!
Sad /but\ Happy!

 

[dlaloum]

What on earth happened with Integra/Onkyo brand anyways?
I had their great (<imo) DHC-40.2 as a AV Pre/Pro when HDMIv1.4a was just released and it served me until my next TV 'demanded' to be fed by HDMIv2.0.
The Integra brand disappeared, as I was researching a replacement.
On again. Off again. I moved on!
Sad /but\ Happy!

I think a lot of people dropped them when they dropped Audyssey (which they may have had no control over, is it happened around the time that Denon/Marantz purchased the rights to Audyssey... so competitors may well have been kicked off!).

Onkyo's solution was to purchase Pioneer - that way they gained MCACC - which they renamed on Onkyo/Integra AVR's - it also gave them the Dirac project which was in its early days with Pioneer and Dirac working together - the outcome of that, 5+ years later was the release of the current Dirac enabled models.

In the interrim Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer soldiered on with limited RoomEQ (MCACC/AccuEQ) - but lost a lot of the mid to high end market share

Their come back was a long time coming - and is closely linked to Dirac - what we (some of us) are hoping, is that Onkyo is ahead of the curve with Dirac, and that the Flagship models will benefit from this, with the release of DLBC and/or SRC over the next couple of months.

Here's hoping that Onkyo will bring some real competition to bear on D&M... limiting D&M's ability to raise their prices - the joys of competition!!

 

[kryptonite]

Apologize if this is slightly off topic, but hopefully is something others are looking to do as well

a) Could anyone recommend a decent stereo amplifier to pair with the X3800H to fully realize a 11 channel speaker setup? I guess it should at minimum measure similarly or slightly better than the X3800H in terms of performance? EDIT: would the Emotiva BasX A2m work?

b) In order to continue to maintain overall audio quality, in the context of the X3800H, would you recommend that the Front L/R channels be offloaded to the external amp, or one of the surround/top pairs?

Thanks.

 

[MRavioli]

If anyone is claiming distortion at -87 dB is audible, then they can demonstrate this by successfully passing a blind test with music using the excellent Distort software and Foobar's ABX Comparator component, and posting the log with verifiable checksum. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. @Mad_Economist has even done (most of) the work for you, with the last sample on this page simulating the iFi Zen DAC using Distort, which has a similar distortion profile (bit better) then the X3800H. And be sure to check out all the other samples and simulations of other worse performing DACs/amps on that page and see if you can hear their distortion. It certainly is an eye (or rather ear) opening experience as to what all these figures mean in practice when it comes to audibility.

Finally! A usable approach to validating the numbers for AVRs etc (although I will admit there is a more scientific, evidence based approach with speakers on ASR and an attempt to correlate measurements with sound quality)