Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Miker 1102]

It seems that a lot of people like the way the 3800 "sound", so I have to ask, how sure are you that your perceived sound quality issue is in fact due to the 3800 and not other things? I asked, because while measurements Amir provided do not cover everything that could conceivably contribute to your perceived issues, the extensive tests really did not show anything that could contribute to the vocal weakness that you and surely some other users perceived, and again many didn't perceive the same.

In my experience, vocals in movies have never been great regardless of any of the AVRs/AVPs I have used in the last 10 or more years, but it does seem that it is getting worse with the advanced formats from the plain 5.1, 7.1 to 5.1.4, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, and from DDTHD to Atmos, DTS:X etc. I believe the biggest factor is the recording/mastering itself, just like for music, recoding/mastering quality trumps the quality of mid to flagship level AVRs/AVPs/speaker. In order of importance, in my opinion, people often get their pripority misplaced, they should be focus more on recording/mastering quality, followed by room acoustics, speakers, and then the electronic stuff. Obviously that assumes people already have very decent speakers and are shopping for mid range and higher AVRs, AVPs, preamp/dacs, and power amps. I consider the X3800H the starting point of "midrange" AVR, ommv.

I am old Peng and have had an HTPC for almost 20 years and have a large collection of 5.1 mixes by guys like Steve Wilson and have been searching out good masters forever. I have excellent remasters of Yes, Tull,Rush by Wilson that are excellent in multichannel. I has some very cool SACDs for Tchaikovsky that I also love . As far as my perceived subjective assessment of the sound, there were lots of other reviewers that have heard the same things as me . The 3800, to me, has a noticeable audible difference ..especially in vocals with music.I try to avoid even mentioning the subjective because it lack objectivity and is frowned upon in the forum. My slight skepticism comes from the folks who are constantly telling me me i cant hear a differnce own 10k dollar pre pros and denapfris dacs. . I have an appointment to listen to Anthem from people I have met who "subjectively" introduced me to the product. I am actually going this listen to some moon (Canada?) Audio this week, as well. I appreciate your efforts to convince me of my Psychoaccoustical error. Even if I am wrong and the 3800 sounds exactly like every other product, my subjective experience is I found it fatiguing from music with the same settings and equipment. I don't want to run afoul of ASR protocols and I think the 3800 product is fine for film. Should I ignore my own experience, however? As far as testing goes, everybody has a different room and it's impossible to give accurate measurements. I could definitely tell there is some recessed sound to the musical vocals on the 3800 then I would being disingenuous if I didnt mention it.. But I will defer others from now in to the original review, which Amir doesn't recommend the 3800. I really appreciate your reasoned responses and have learned a great deal from reading your posts and especially from you pushing reading the manuals. The manuals are vey important. Thank you very much for always taking the time to try and help folks like myself.

 

[FrantzM]

The 3800 has a dynamic range compression function which will bring up the level of quieter sounds without increasing louder ones.

I haven't tried it yet.

Fair point. It seems that mind, the AVR-X3400 has it too or it could be the Apple TV has that function. I haven' tried those.
It remains that the mastering/mixing of movies is needs to be addressed at the source.

Best
Peace.

 

[G-Can]

It seems that a lot of people like the way the 3800 "sound", so I have to ask, how sure are you that your perceived sound quality issue is in fact due to the 3800 and not other things? I asked, because while measurements Amir provided do not cover everything that could conceivably contribute to your perceived issues, the extensive tests really did not show anything that could contribute to the vocal weakness that you and surely some other users perceived, and again many didn't perceive the same.

In my experience, vocals in movies have never been great regardless of any of the AVRs/AVPs I have used in the last 10 or more years, but it does seem that it is getting worse with the advanced formats from the plain 5.1, 7.1 to 5.1.4, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, and from DDTHD to Atmos, DTS:X etc. I believe the biggest factor is the recording/mastering itself, just like for music, recoding/mastering quality trumps the quality of mid to flagship level AVRs/AVPs/speaker. In order of importance, in my opinion, people often get their pripority misplaced, they should be focus more on recording/mastering quality, followed by room acoustics, speakers, and then the electronic stuff. Obviously that assumes people already have very decent speakers and are shopping for mid range and higher AVRs, AVPs, preamp/dacs, and power amps. I consider the X3800H the starting point of "midrange" AVR, ommv.

ahmmm, cause I literally just replaced AVR in exact same space and same spekaer layout, and I ran this new AVR for couple weeks without any room correction, other then manually measuring speaker distances and crossover points.

And now it sounds worse lol soo much bass and listening to someone speaking on central speaker is like the speaker is worth $20

(my 7.1.4 consists of 2xKef Q300, KEF Q600, KEF Q100, and 4 Micca 8" in ceiling with an SBS SB3000 subwoofer)

this whole setup is in a dedicated basement space, fairly damped and speaker layout is close to perfect as per dolby recomndations.

 

[peng]

ahmmm, cause I literally just replaced AVR in exact same space and same spekaer layout, and I ran this new AVR for couple weeks without any room correction, other then manually measuring speaker distances and crossover points.

And now it sounds worse lol soo much bass and listening to someone speaking on central speaker is like the speaker is worth $20

(my 7.1.4 consists of 2xKef Q300, KEF Q600, KEF Q100, and 4 Micca 8" in ceiling with an SBS SB3000 subwoofer)

this whole setup is in a dedicated basement space, fairly damped and speaker layout is close to perfect as per dolby recomndations.

So then Audyssey did help? I know it costs a lot, but I found that Dirac Live did give me the feeling of "veil lifted" kind of better upper mid bass to lower midrange. Not sure if the big discount they were offering has ended yet, if not may be you should try. I noted you said you room is afirly damped, but it's the results that counts.

All of the Denon and Marantz I had in the past sounded very transparent, nothing like what you described, so I hope you work on isolating any potential issues before giving up on it, unless your return window is closing in on you.

 

[Miker 1102]

So then Audyssey did help? I know it costs a lot, but I found that Dirac Live did give me the feeling of "veil lifted" kind of better upper mid bass to lower midrange. Not sure if the big discount they were offering has ended yet, if not may be you should try. I noted you said you room is afirly damped, but it's the results that counts.

All of the Denon and Marantz I had in the past sounded very transparent, nothing like what you described, so I hope you work on isolating any potential issues before giving up on it, unless your return window is closing in on you.

My issues with vocals were music and used the same exact settings in Audessy as my last Denon. The movie dialog was clear but not the music. I had cranked thr enhancer on most tracks and felt that it changed thr eq balance. I would love to get others feedback with the dialog enhancer. I have the 3800 still sitting here. Maybe I could give it to my son for his wedding gift and install some ceiling speakers gor him. I bet his new bride would just love this!

 

[peng]

My issues with vocals were music and used the same exact settings in Audessy as my last Denon. The movie dialog was clear but not the music. I had cranked thr enhancer on most tracks and felt that it changed thr eq balance. I would love to get others feedback with the dialog enhancer. I have the 3800 still sitting here. Maybe I could give it to my son for his wedding gift and install some ceiling speakers gor him. I bet his new bride would just love this!

I have never auditioned the 3800, maybe I should, just to satisfy my curiosity.

I hope you like the Anthem you are being introduced to, and that your 3800 can still be returned.

Edit: Just check BB, no luck in auditioning, both the 3800 and 4800 are sold out in nearby BB stores!

 

[EWL5]

My issues with vocals were music and used the same exact settings in Audessy as my last Denon. The movie dialog was clear but not the music. I had cranked thr enhancer on most tracks and felt that it changed thr eq balance. I would love to get others feedback with the dialog enhancer. I have the 3800 still sitting here. Maybe I could give it to my son for his wedding gift and install some ceiling speakers gor him. I bet his new bride would just love this!

The 3800 is fine (especially as a gift!) as long as he didn't come from much better equipment as I did.

I still find it odd that something as simple as getting rid of the archaic MRC requires the $20 tax (yes, the app). Must be good to have that in the backpocket for D&M!

 

[antcollinet]

Fair point. It seems that mind, the AVR-X3400 has it too or it could be the Apple TV has that function. I haven' tried those.
It remains that the mastering/mixing of movies is needs to be addressed at the source.

Best
Peace.

we call them mumbly movies.

 

[ban25]

ahmmm, cause I literally just replaced AVR in exact same space and same spekaer layout, and I ran this new AVR for couple weeks without any room correction, other then manually measuring speaker distances and crossover points.

And now it sounds worse lol soo much bass and listening to someone speaking on central speaker is like the speaker is worth $20

(my 7.1.4 consists of 2xKef Q300, KEF Q600, KEF Q100, and 4 Micca 8" in ceiling with an SBS SB3000 subwoofer)

this whole setup is in a dedicated basement space, fairly damped and speaker layout is close to perfect as per dolby recomndations.

It's unfortunately essential to get the $20 app and turn off MRC on Audyssey. Seriously, that setting destroys the sound and it is baffling that D+M have it enabled by default and provide *no* way to remove it short of a paid app (or paying for Dirac).

 

[antcollinet]

My issues with vocals were music and used the same exact settings in Audessy as my last Denon. The movie dialog was clear but not the music. I had cranked thr enhancer on most tracks and felt that it changed thr eq balance. I would love to get others feedback with the dialog enhancer. I have the 3800 still sitting here. Maybe I could give it to my son for his wedding gift and install some ceiling speakers gor him. I bet his new bride would just love this!

My experience of trying to up-mix stereo to multi channel on every AVR I have tried is it's a disaster.

If I'm listening to two channel music - then I'm only using two speakers + sub. I'm listening to Radio Paradise like that right now on my 3800 (all functions turned off, except for audessy) and it sounds superb.

I should add that I'm feeding it from a Dirac processed MiniDSP. But I've not re-done the dirac measurements since changing the AVR so any differences from the old SONY AVR EQ are not accounted for - I should probably get around to that.


Movie sound tracks are stunning.

 

[antcollinet]

It's unfortunately essential to get the $20 app and turn off MRC on Audyssey. Seriously, that setting destroys the sound and it is baffling that D+M have it enabled by default and provide *no* way to remove it short of a paid app (or paying for Dirac).

What is MRC?

If I get the app, do I have to re-do measurements? Or can it re-use the measurement data already captured?

 

[Deleted member 21114]

What is MRC?

Mid Range Compensation. A BBC dip around 2KHz.

 

[phn]

The 3800 has a dynamic range compression function which will bring up the level of quieter sounds without increasing louder ones.

I haven't tried it yet.

I am using my two Audyssey presets as one for Music and the other for Movies, latter having the Center channel level boosted a couple of desibels. Seems to help without making it too loud.

 

[Miker 1102]

I have never auditioned the 3800, maybe I should, just to satisfy my curiosity.

I hope you like the Anthem you are being introduced to, and that your 3800 can still be returned.

Edit: Just check BB, no luck in auditioning, both the 3800 and 4800 are

I am using my two Audyssey presets as one for Music and the other for Movies, latter having the Center channel level boosted a couple of desibels. Seems to help without making it too loud.

The 3800 is fine (especially as a gift!) as long as he didn't come from much better equipment as I did.

I still find it odd that something as simple as getting rid of the archaic MRC requires the $20 tax (yes, the app). Must be good to have that in the backpocket for D&M!

The app is thr most helpful thing that I have used in the Audyssey suite. From e everything I have read, the 200 windows app is very good and you can really get excellent measurements wirh it. I been considering this today.

 

[tsammyc]

Yes. I found the same. The vocals were weak. I believe that is why they added that vocal enhancement feature..it sounded unnatural me tho, like it messed up the eq when used. . You can turn off mid range compensation with the 20 dollar app. You can also correct the range which Audyssey adjusts by using the curtains only up to the first reflection around about 300hz and under. You can also use the sound curve feature to add some boost around where you cross the speakers over. This all helps the sound quite a bit. I never found a way to adjust the 3800 to my musical.likikg despite using the same Audyssey settings. It sounds like you have some work to try with the 3800 yet. I also turn everything off like dymaic eq.

I have the 3800 and can hear the difference between DACs, but certainly not to the point of a modern DAC sounding unnatural. For music, differences tend to be in warmth and AKM DACs sound warmer to me than ESS. Depending on the music, say techno vs a cappella singing, different DACs have their strengths. I have long used an external DAC driven by a streamer (initially Bluesound, but now a WIIM Mini since its introduction) connected to the 3800 via analog. IMHO, external DACs simply outperform internal DACs for two channel music and provide a consistency when moving from AVR to AVR. For music I own, I have long ripped my CDs and SACDs into FLAC and DSD files (including 5.1) and drive the streamer using Audirvana or the WiiM. Similarly for Tidal. The 3800's amplifier is better than my previous Yamaha AVR, so it has been an improvement for 2 channel music. I listened to Tidal through the 3800's internal DAC and SACD (via HDMI from the SACD player). It sounded OK, certainly not unnatural, but I prefer my external DACs via analog. My suggestion, is to plug in a good external DAC via analog and see if you are still getting unnatural sound. That will isolate the issue to your dislike of the Ti DAC.

To me, its important how you play two channel music and for me, it depends very much on the type of music. I generally play quiet music like vocals in Pure Direct mode, which turns off most electronics in the Denon and also turns off Audyssey or Dirac. Denon and Marantz have this great Mains+LFE mode, which allows you to run Pure Direct with L+R also sent to the subwoofer output. My SVS 3000 Micro sub has a fairly sophisticated DSP, with a 3 band parametric equalizer, and low pass filter, that can accurately tame low frequency room modes and therefore compensates for the lack of Audyssey. Currently sounds as good as I've every heard it. The worse sounding mode for this amp is stereo mode with Audyssey processing. Are you using this?

For noisy music, like Jazz or Techno, even big classical pieces, my current preference is Auro3D processing. To me, its a huge step from any previous two channel music processing. It adds 3D spaciousness, while retaining the forward vocals and clarity with Audyssey or Dirac processing, while utilizing all my 11 Atmos speakers and two subs. Definitely try it. I'm in the process of adding Dirac and DLBC. From what I've heard it will integrate the two subs better.

 

[tsammyc]

I don't doubt the 4500 subjectively sounds better, but maybe not because of the DAC who knows. Though the question was how are you testing this?

To me, the dramatic difference he hears, to the point of sounding unnatural, could be due to some hardware issue with his particular 3800 that is covered up when all the speakers are in play.

 

[onion]

Finally got round to applying Dirac Live with bass control to my X3800 - huge improvement in spaciousness (for a relatively narrow room) and clarity.

This was going from no room correction rather than Audyssey/ MEQ, so I have no opinion on the relative merits subjectively.

DLBC very easy to use although I did not see much posted about it. Once the measurements are done, there are three options (see screenshot) and one can toggle between the three modes (or add one to each slot): Dirac Live, DL Bass Control and DL Bass Management. DLBC is the one that does clever things with phase and seems better for seat-to-seat consistency but has some reviewers questioning its utility for music vs movies compared to DLBM

I am delighted that this AV Amp can now run RC software like DLBC, even if the DACS are inferior to its predecessor. Fantastic value for money in my opinion and a significant upgrade on my previous Arcam and Anthem amps.

 

[napfkuchen]

I have the 3800 and can hear the difference between DACs, but certainly not to the point of a modern DAC sounding unnatural. For music, differences tend to be in warmth and AKM DACs sound warmer to me than ESS. Depending on the music, say techno vs a cappella singing, different DACs have their strengths. I have long used an external DAC driven by a streamer (initially Bluesound, but now a WIIM Mini since its introduction) connected to the 3800 via analog. IMHO, external DACs simply outperform internal DACs for two channel music and provide a consistency when moving from AVR to AVR. For music I own, I have long ripped my CDs and SACDs into FLAC and DSD files (including 5.1) and drive the streamer using Audirvana or the WiiM. Similarly for Tidal. The 3800's amplifier is better than my previous Yamaha AVR, so it has been an improvement for 2 channel music. I listened to Tidal through the 3800's internal DAC and SACD (via HDMI from the SACD player). It sounded OK, certainly not unnatural, but I prefer my external DACs via analog. My suggestion, is to plug in a good external DAC via analog and see if you are still getting unnatural sound. That will isolate the issue to your dislike of the Ti DAC.

Are you planning to become a priest or a reviewer for what-hifi?

 

[Steve Dallas]

I have the 3800 and can hear the difference between DACs, but certainly not to the point of a modern DAC sounding unnatural. For music, differences tend to be in warmth and AKM DACs sound warmer to me than ESS. Depending on the music, say techno vs a cappella singing, different DACs have their strengths. I have long used an external DAC driven by a streamer (initially Bluesound, but now a WIIM Mini since its introduction) connected to the 3800 via analog. IMHO, external DACs simply outperform internal DACs for two channel music and provide a consistency when moving from AVR to AVR. For music I own, I have long ripped my CDs and SACDs into FLAC and DSD files (including 5.1) and drive the streamer using Audirvana or the WiiM. Similarly for Tidal. The 3800's amplifier is better than my previous Yamaha AVR, so it has been an improvement for 2 channel music. I listened to Tidal through the 3800's internal DAC and SACD (via HDMI from the SACD player). It sounded OK, certainly not unnatural, but I prefer my external DACs via analog. My suggestion, is to plug in a good external DAC via analog and see if you are still getting unnatural sound. That will isolate the issue to your dislike of the Ti DAC.

To me, its important how you play two channel music and for me, it depends very much on the type of music. I generally play quiet music like vocals in Pure Direct mode, which turns off most electronics in the Denon and also turns off Audyssey or Dirac. Denon and Marantz have this great Mains+LFE mode, which allows you to run Pure Direct with L+R also sent to the subwoofer output. My SVS 3000 Micro sub has a fairly sophisticated DSP, with a 3 band parametric equalizer, and low pass filter, that can accurately tame low frequency room modes and therefore compensates for the lack of Audyssey. Currently sounds as good as I've every heard it. The worse sounding mode for this amp is stereo mode with Audyssey processing. Are you using this?

For noisy music, like Jazz or Techno, even big classical pieces, my current preference is Auro3D processing. To me, its a huge step from any previous two channel music processing. It adds 3D spaciousness, while retaining the forward vocals and clarity with Audyssey or Dirac processing, while utilizing all my 11 Atmos speakers and two subs. Definitely try it. I'm in the process of adding Dirac and DLBC. From what I've heard it will integrate the two subs better.

Of course you know that running any bass management, even in pure direct mode, means your outboard DAC's signal is going through ADC and DAC, which negates your claims about the superior nature of your outboard DAC.

 

[peng]

Of course you know that running any bass management, even in pure direct mode, means your outboard DAC's signal is going through ADC and DAC, which negates your claims about the superior nature of your outboard DAC.

But I thought he meant using analog inputs, if that's the case then in pure direct mode the signal won't go through the ADC/DAC.