Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[North_Sky]

audio.com.pl measured 44W/ch.

The X3400H from S&V ...
• https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

 

[Mauro]

I don't think one is bad and the other good. Centrally located means it doesn't have as much variation reaching all the amp channels. It also seems to be under the digital circuits where it doesn't do any harm. Ultimately measurements show if there is a problem or not. Here, I don't see any mains frequency getting into audio path:

View attachment 40050

If mains are out of the equation. What could be? are you using two mono signals in two different acquistions and plotting them toghether or is it a stereo signal/acquisition? If the latter, then the poor crosstalk might be the culprit. Why not giving a run in mono to cross check? It might answer peng and others doubts

 

[North_Sky]

audio.com.pl measured 44W/ch.

Times nine (x 9) ... @ the selected 4 Ohm speaker setting.
@ the selected 8 Ohm setting = 50 Watts x 9 (which is the normal default setting, and the one I recommend myself.) ...And same recommendation for the X3500H AV receiver.

• https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3035-denon-avr-x4500h

 

[maty]

My own guess: 97-98% of the owners/buyers of this receiver (X3500H) don't use them.

* I was looking @ the DACs measurements again, and of the NAD T758 AV receiver ...
scary! I hope Denon & NAD reps or better, engineers, are reading ASR. They have to be from China, Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, Kathmandu, ...?

You can have a 9.2 system with a expensive AVR like the old and expensive Yamaha RX-V2700 (I had one). A friend bought it first. It has a very good preamp.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/NB-imagenes/andreu/16042011/sala-andreu-16042011.jpg

[Spanish] https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/201...1p-versus-trevisub-campo-lejano-y-multicanal/

 

[astr0b0y]

So,to get the best out of this unit would you feed it max 1.2V input (to get lowest distortion), set unit to 4 ohm (to reduce internal amp power) and use external power amps?

 

[Mauro]

You can have a 9.2 system with a expensive AVR like the old and expensive Yamaha RX-V2700 (I had one). A friend bought it first. It has a very good preamp.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/NB-imagenes/andreu/16042011/sala-andreu-16042011.jpg

[Spanish] https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/201...1p-versus-trevisub-campo-lejano-y-multicanal/

Mmmh. I am not sure I’d buy an AVR with good sound but just ok room correction. I think many home theater guys might agree with my preference

 

[maty]

Modern AVR is a bad idea to listen to very good music recordings with high DR like me. At least with PureDirect, external DAC and loudspeakers do not measure badly but... It is true that the vast majority do not listen to high quality recording music and many even like MP3 sound more, so ...

The majority of the cheap improvements I had made is to reduce the noise, ripple and RF interferences and thus increase the SNR -> better sound.

 

[jazzendapus]

good music recordings with high DR like me

This amp allows ~83db of clean DR, are you aware of any recordings that require more than that or artists that consciously exploit a higher than that dynamic range?

 

[maty]

82 dBA is the minimum I would like. Better more near to 90 dB. SNR-A at 1 watt. I do not want / need more than 90 dB.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Pure Direct.

<snip>


Preamp.

Those of these AVRs that have preamp output only reach up to 1.2 Vrms (RCA). It is rarely documented.

OK

I had that suspicion: I had an Integra and it seems to me that it could take my current gig (JBL LSR 308 front, LSR 305 Surround + 3 PE Subs) to higher levels as compared to the Denon X-3400 I am currently using...
I am in agreement with Northsky. I understand our fascination with high performance and well engineered (and inexpensive too ) products. I am on that bandwagon for a 2.3 (2 mains + 3 subs) music-only system, . For movies, we may have to admit, that these AVR perform well the job of providing good sound for watching movies ... any movie.
For the best in music-only reproduction, so far we may need to look elsewhere for front-ends. On the other hand, if one has only one room, the logistics/ergonomics aspects of combining 2 systems, are not trivial: How to adequately switch from one front end: say a pure music composed of some of the better DAC + Preamps + amps for music to an AVR or Pre/Pro + amps for HT can get complicated in a hurry, especially if one wants to do it at the press of buttons... Pulling cables vs switching automatically from the Pre/Pro to the music gig, new levels, new settings for subs, switching speakers on or off .. etc ... Doable but not straightforward ... Could be an interesting thread in itself .. I may see to that Northsky , you are officially invited to participate, once it goes live ... with links and pictures included ...

 

[XpanD]

Thanks for the excellent test. This is one that I've been looking forward to for a long time. Shame about the DAC performance, but the rest seems quite respectable for the price!

For anybody wondering, by the way... I've been using a computer with an NVIDIA GTX1070 over HDMI on my Marantz SR6013, an unit which seems to be very similar to the higher-end X4500H internally. The only thing I had to tweak (through the NVIDIA control panel) was Output Dynamic Range, which I had to set to Full. Everything else was correct right out of the box, and even trickier stuff like sleep seems to work great (if you get the on-off order right, receiver and TV before waking the PC). I do still have graphics activity noise if I connect an external power amplifier, but that seems to be a common issue across receivers. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

 

[peng]

Amir, someone mentioned eco, you had that turned off right? If left on or auto

I had few audio components over the years featuring Audyssey Room EQ (XT and XT32). I experimented extensively with all the various audio modes in both stereo and multichannel and analog and digital...Stereo, Direct, Pure Direct.

For my ears there was no contest...100% better in Stereo mode with Audyssey Room EQ engaged. And same for digital multichannel.
The other option I like was the analog multichannel...the 7.1-channel input, straight without any digital DSP and bass management from the receiver.
But the room EQ was better balanced overall digitally and bass managed...HDMI, coaxial digital, optical digital and analog stereo jacks (Stereo mode).

The Pure Direct mode I've never used, even with DSD.

To me when you have a decent room EQ like here, this is the main sound quality. Was it measured? No. Is it important? To me it is, big big big time. And I would bet that it is also for many many more. Measurements are super great, but when other parameters came into play (like here Audyssey MultEQ XT32), they take second seating. IMO, YMMV, ALLTHATJAZZ.

People who buy this receiver that's why they should buy it for among other features.
If you want strong quality power it has preouts (a feature of first order).
And, you can add the DAC of your choice to pass your signal through.

But most people buying this unit don't bother because they watch Dolby Atmos flicks from Blu-rays (1080p and 4K) and streaming. ...With Audyssey engaged. Measure that.
So, $600 is not a bad deal @ all, it's not easy to do better; because Dirac Live costs more, or unless you shop in the used refurb audio market and you can find one @ roughly half price ($300).

Black Friday is already here, there are many places with 50%+ off sales.
Who pay MSRP full price? Can you truly measure value from full price which the majority of people never pay? It's not realistic.

Here, in the $600 context it's more realistic.

Or go to the next level by spending $300 more ...
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

@amirm , just curious, you seem to hate the RX-A1080 and AVR-X3500H's heat sinks a lot, any comment on the AVR-X4500H/SR7013 (non identical twins)'s as shown in the image above? Edit: missed your earlier post, got the answer, you obvious like those better calling them "real" heat sinks. Don't count on those two fans though for real world use as they would never kick in until the unit boils, pretty sure they were set to protect warranty claims, not to prolong life before 3 years if pushed hard.

 

[peng]

ESS Sabre Pro DACs?
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...-a3070-9.2-ch-x-150-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

Be careful with those "Pro" Sabre ESS DACs, if you look at the specs that count, such as the THD+N and DNR, even the very old ES9008 beats the ES9026Pro by miles.

From ESS websites:
"The ES9026PRO is a pin-compatible upgrade for the widely used, previous generation ES9016S. It is based on ESS patented HyperStreamDAC technology for outstanding performance with 124dB dynamic range (DNR), and -110dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (TH+N). "

Now compared that to the ES9008's 134 dB DNR and -118 dB THD+N

I have never seen any Yamaha AVR, or AVP/C used anything in the ES90X8 ref. DACs, the X8's seemed to be used by external DAC's such as Oppo's. the ES90X6 DACs are no better than Denon/Marantz/Anthem's AKM AK44XX series. I have the impression that the Sabre name tend to impress more than AKM by nature, names matter..I guess..

 

[peng]

Modern AVR is a bad idea to listen to very good music recordings with high DR like me. At least with PureDirect, external DAC and loudspeakers do not measure badly but... It is true that the vast majority do not listen to high quality recording music and many even like MP3 sound more, so ...

The majority of the cheap improvements I had made is to reduce the noise, ripple and RF interferences and thus increase the SNR -> better sound.

Really? What's the noise floor of your room?

Here's a good read I found on the topic/or related at least..
https://performermag.com/music-news...ion-audio-why-it-matters-for-your-recordings/

I kind of like what this one person said in another article:

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/

"...........So keeping the dynamic range of home audio under 60dB is much of what allowed home entertainment equipment to be affordable, of modest size, and relatively high-fidelity. Fact is that most commercially distributed HD recordings have a dynamic range that is intentionally less than half the 144dB dynamic range of a 24-bit recording and significantly less than the 96dB dynamic range of even a 16-bit recording.
Think about it: a 60dB dynamic range on top of a 30dB background noise equals 90db. How much louder than 90dB do you want to listen to music in your home? More importantly, for every additional 3dB you increase dynamic range, you would need to double the wattage of your amplifier and double the output of your speakers.............."

 

[peng]

I see. So the power amp section is contaminating the preamp DAC section by not being well separated individually and shielded from each other? ...Cheap implementation...you get what you pay for ... a bunch of neat features but forget it about audiophile stereo hi-fi digital music sound quality. Think Avengers: Endgame instead?

I though Amir had mentioned it in another AVR review but I might have remember wrong, but Gene over at Audioholics certainly alluded to something like that and therefore made his recommendations on the use of the X3600H's pre-outs:

"With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering.

Editorial Note about Front L/R Channels Preamp Disconnect
Front L/R channel preamp disconnect ONLY happens in a 11CH speaker configuration. If you have simply 9.1 channel configuration (5.1.4) or less, and you want to drive front L/R speakers out of external amplifier, or L/R/C, or L/R/C/SL/SR speakers out of external 5 channel amplifiers, internal amplifiers will not be disconnected. There is no selecting or sensing mechanism to allow that unless you activate 11.1 channel Amp Assign mode and select Front L and R for preouts."​

Denon AVR-X3600H Preamp Output Voltage vs Distortion​

​

Note that Denon's internal test show much better THD on the AVR-X3600H than the X3500H's measured by Amir, yet the preamp/DAC/power amps of two units are supposedly identical except the X33500H has two few power amp channel. That's another reason why I thought it might had something to do with the power amp section and the protective scheme's influence. This really bugs me, would be great to be able to get the real engineers in Denon, or Marantz to comment on such phenomenon.

Gene also had the following to say in his review/measurements on the SR8012:

"The SR8012 is capable of outputting 4.5Vrms unclipped from the multi-ch preamp outputs hich is more than 2X voltage drive needed to make most external amplifiers reach full unclipped power.

Editorial Note about Preamp Mode:
I was unable to do a preamp frequency sweep exceeding 1.2Vrms as it tripped the protection circuits since the power amps were still engaged and exceeded full rated power (140 watt/ch, 8 ohms, Av = 29dB). Unfortunately, Marantz doesn't offer a preamp only mode to disconnect the power amp from the circuit if you're using only external amplification. This is something I'd like to see ALL receiver manufacturers offer that include preouts to avoid this very problem I noted. It would also be more energy efficient as well. We will be testing this on receivers going forward and lobbying the manufacturers to include a preamp mode if they already don't. Please note it's unlikely you will ever run into a problem driving external amplification as normal program material doesn't behave like continuous sinusoidal sweeps like what was used on my bench tests.​

At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD. Still the noise floor (-140dB) of the SR8012 was exceptional as you can see in the FFT below, almost -20dB lower than I measured on the Denon AVR-X3300W."

 

[Vovgan]

82 dBA is the minimum I would like. Better more near to 90 dB. SNR-A at 1 watt. I do not want / need more than 90 dB.

@maty, why are you setting your bar so low and thereby supporting the tyranny of low expectations in home cinema? 1) There's already a plethora of excellent content, including blu ray tracks, that can benefit from the full 24bits of resolution. 2) We‘ve discovered excellent mass market products that deliver superior performance at a fraction of good AVR's price. Why would you let AVR manufacturers get away with mediocrity?

On a related note - what‘s the fun in participating in this forum if we’re not rooting for exceptional performance, celebrate when it’s achieved and gloat or cry (depending on whether we’re an unlucky owner) if the hyped product falls flat on its face?

 

[raistlin65]

To me when you have a decent room EQ like here, this is the main sound quality. Was it measured? No. Is it important? To me it is, big big big time. And I would bet that it is also for many many more. Measurements are super great, but when other parameters came into play (like here Audyssey MultEQ XT32), they take second seating. IMO, YMMV, ALLTHATJAZZ.

What parameters of the output can be measured after XT32 is engaged? Measurements of DACs and amps depend on putting in a signal and seeing how close the output signal is to the original. Audyssey is going to dramatically change the signal when the filters are applied. Maybe the people at Audyssey could get some insight into distortion it's adding by inverting the filter changes back against the output signal to restore it to what it should be like unfiltered. But we don't have any way to do that that I can think of.

This may also be why Denon hasn't engineered the AVR for lower distortion, the assumption being that the AVR is primarily being used with MultEQ. Good chance slight variations in the user's mic positioning during the calibration process have more impact on how the sound changes than the distortion that is added by the DAC and power amp.

 

[peng]

This may also be why Denon hasn't engineered the AVR for lower distortion, the assumption being that the AVR is primarily being used with MultEQ. Good chance slight variations in the user's mic positioning during the calibration process have more impact on how the sound changes than the distortion that is added by the DAC and power amp.

I don't think that is the reason, even this little Denon offers distortions at rated output lower than those that don't come equipped with Audyssey. In fact it did better than even some pure power amps, such as the Crown XLS1502.

 

[jazzendapus]

There's already a plethora of excellent content, including blu ray tracks, that can benefit from the full 24bits of resolution.

Really? Do you have an example? I would like to analyze it in Audacity.
And btw, are you aware of the fact that there's no speaker in existance that has harmonic distortion that's even close to that of mediocre DACs and amps? And that means that you have never ever heard anything close to full 24bit resolution from a speaker...

 

[maty]

For my second system, in the near field and with true 85 dB sensitivity (low) speakers, taking into account the type of recordings I listen to (very good recordings and DR15 or more is quite usual), I want SNR-A at 1 watt 88-92 dB. More not if it is because a lot of feedback is used (class A or AB). Thanks to the Spanish blinds, the exterior noise drops a lot at night, in addition to a better quality of the electrical grid, terrible where I live.

I don not listen to more than 75 dBSPL continuous. Normally closer to 65 dBSPL.

And 24/96 FLAC from old analogue masters is my preference.

* Old: The sound is usually better than the current one despite the worst technology. The current human factor is much worse. The classical interpretations are less bright thanks to a lower tuning. And there was an abundance of amazing directors and very great recordings.

* 24 bits. A pianissimo needs more than 16 bits.

* 96 kHz. When you make vinyl rip at 24/192 (or more), the dithering use affects the sound. Hence I prefer 96 kHz, FLAC 0.