Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[audiophool]

Although it would be hard to arrange, I think it would be interesting to do a blind A/B/X study to see if many could reliably hear the difference between something like this mediocre unit and a home theater setup with SOTA DAC quality on a mix of Blu-Rays & DVDs- music+video discs (concerts) and some cinema discs (movies).

For stereo music playback, with high quality speakers or headphones, I would be ready to believe that the middling-low quality of the DAC in this thing could be audible, but even there I'd like to see results of a proper experiment to see if all/ many / some / few / none listeners could tell the difference from a SOTA DAC.

I have the worst measuring DAC and one of the best measuring DAC. My casual ears can't tell any difference.

 

[Rja4000]

my power measurements using coax input do use the product as intended by stringing the DAC

Sure.
And that's the main use case.
I just meant that for this kind of device, in my opinion, it seems to be always useful to clearly measure both 2-4V and at the identified best-measuring DAC output level

 

[RickSanchez]

I apologize for my complete lack of ee/circuitry knowledge. Just trying to learn a bit more, so wanted to follow up on Maty's comment from early in the thread. In particular I'd like to understand more about transformer placement in equipment like this, and what impact it may have on audio performance.

1) Is this true?



2) If true, why?

 

[amirm]

I don't think one is bad and the other good. Centrally located means it doesn't have as much variation reaching all the amp channels. It also seems to be under the digital circuits where it doesn't do any harm. Ultimately measurements show if there is a problem or not. Here, I don't see any mains frequency getting into audio path:

 

[RickSanchez]

I don't think one is bad and the other good. Centrally located means it doesn't have as much variation reaching all the amp channels. It also seems to be under the digital circuits where it doesn't do any harm. Ultimately measurements show if there is a problem or not.

Thanks Amir, that’s super helpful info for me.

 

[Dj7675]

Would the amp SINAD also go higher if measured at 1Vrms or 1.2 Vrms? If so, it would be interesting for those that might use it in that range during normal use. For example if you had very efficient speakers, small room, or seating was close to the speakers, or for those that might not listen anywhere near reference levels.
Also, these receivers seem much, much more complicated and time consuming to measure. It is great to have measurements of receivers and in particular a model from such a popular brand as Denon. Thanks for your continued efforts measuring receivers.

 

[Vovgan]

Is there a pure direct mode? The analog inputs were not digitized so I don't think there is any processing after I reset it.

My experience is that pure direct mode improves the cleanliness of sound substantially. The yellow button in the bottom right corner of the remote control allows you to activate it for a given analogue input. But then again if the analogue signal was not digitally processed in your tests - maybe it was in the pure direct mode already.

 

[trl]

1V RMS

vs.

2V RMS

@amirm & @Dj7675, seems that feeding it with 1V RMS instead of 1.5...2V RMS makes this AVR quite a decent., right? Seems that at 1.2V RMS it has a SINAD of 95.7dB, while on 2V RMS has a SINAD of 73.6dB.

 

[amirm]

We would slash our wrists if we had a DAC with a SINAD of 95. But yes, it is much better at lower output level.

 

[Mauro]

My Marantz sr5012 has almost the same HW configuration. Then you are telling me that my idea of buying it in case I wanted to upgrade with an external better amp is a very poor idea!! Good to know

Anyway Marantz and Denon are siblings. I am eager to know who performs better in these implementations of these AK44XX DAC-based receivers.

by the way. Being my first post here, but having been reading for a while I should thank amirm for his efforts. I can follow much better your exposition than others: Audioholics and Stereophile.. and I feel that I am learning!!

 

[North_Sky]

My experience is that pure direct mode improves the cleanliness of sound substantially. The yellow button in the bottom right corner of the remote control allows you to activate it for a given analogue input. But then again if the analogue signal was not digitally processed in your tests - maybe it was in the pure direct mode already.

I had few audio components over the years featuring Audyssey Room EQ (XT and XT32). I experimented extensively with all the various audio modes in both stereo and multichannel and analog and digital...Stereo, Direct, Pure Direct.

For my ears there was no contest...100% better in Stereo mode with Audyssey Room EQ engaged. And same for digital multichannel.
The other option I like was the analog multichannel...the 7.1-channel input, straight without any digital DSP and bass management from the receiver.
But the room EQ was better balanced overall digitally and bass managed...HDMI, coaxial digital, optical digital and analog stereo jacks (Stereo mode).

The Pure Direct mode I've never used, even with DSD.

To me when you have a decent room EQ like here, this is the main sound quality. Was it measured? No. Is it important? To me it is, big big big time. And I would bet that it is also for many many more. Measurements are super great, but when other parameters came into play (like here Audyssey MultEQ XT32), they take second seating. IMO, YMMV, ALLTHATJAZZ.

People who buy this receiver that's why they should buy it for among other features.
If you want strong quality power it has preouts (a feature of first order).
And, you can add the DAC of your choice to pass your signal through.

But most people buying this unit don't bother because they watch Dolby Atmos flicks from Blu-rays (1080p and 4K) and streaming. ...With Audyssey engaged. Measure that.
So, $600 is not a bad deal @ all, it's not easy to do better; because Dirac Live costs more, or unless you shop in the used refurb audio market and you can find one @ roughly half price ($300).

Black Friday is already here, there are many places with 50%+ off sales.
Who pay MSRP full price? Can you truly measure value from full price which the majority of people never pay? It's not realistic.

Here, in the $600 context it's more realistic.

Or go to the next level by spending $300 more ...
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

 

[Mauro]

I had few audio components over the years featuring Audyssey Room EQ (XT and XT32). I experimented extensively with all the various audio modes in both stereo and multichannel and analog and digital...Stereo, Direct, Pure Direct.

For my ears there was no contest...100% better in Stereo mode with Audyssey Room EQ engaged. And same for digital multichannel.
The other option I like was the analog multichannel...the 7.1-channel input, straight without any digital DSP and bass management from the receiver.
But the room EQ was better balanced overall digitally and bass managed...HDMI, coaxial digital, optical digital and analog stereo jacks (Stereo mode).

The Pure Direct mode I've never used, even with DSD.

To me when you have a decent room EQ like here, this is the main sound quality. Was it measured? No. Is it important? To me it is, big big big time. And I would bet that it is also for many many more. Measurements are super great, but when other parameters came into play (like here Audyssey MultEQ XT32), they take second seating. IMO, YMMV, ALLTHATJAZZ.

People who buy this receiver that's why they should buy it for among other features.
If you want strong quality power it has preouts (a feature of first order).
And, you can add the DAC of your choice to pass your signal through.

But most people buying this unit don't bother because they watch Dolby Atmos flicks from Blu-rays (1080p and 4K) and streaming. ...With Audyssey engaged. Measure that.
So, $600 is not a bad deal @ all, it's not easy to do better; because Dirac Live costs more, or unless you shop in the used refurb audio market and you can find one @ roughly half price ($300).

Black Friday is already here, there are many places with 50%+ off sakes.
Who pay MSRP full price? Can you truly measure value from full price which the majority of people never pay? It's not realistic.

Here, in the $600 context it's more realistic.

Or go to the next level by spending $300 more ...
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

I perfectly agree on EQ and pricing. I bought my almost equivalent Marantz SR5012 at 500€ on Amazon instead of 1000€. I totally enjoy it. And Audissey makes the difference compared to my previous Pioneer AVR.

I compared the SR5012 with stereo solutions of Atoll, Nuprime, Exposure, Marantz around 1000€ MSRP and for me the only getting somewhat better was the Atoll IN SE 200 but its price could not justify the amount of sound difference.

And with the 20€ audissey app you can set the higher frequency threshold of EQ. it can be heard as an improvement on higher frequencies...

all of this is difficult to measure but I think matters.
anyway good engineering is what I think this forum is about. So two different points of viewI guess.
Both valuable

 

[Vovgan]

We would slash our wrists if we had a DAC with a SINAD of 95. But yes, it is much better at lower output level.

you have previously said that:

if you have two subsystems cascaded with each having a SINAD of 80, the resulting SINAD will be 74 dB. If one is 90 dB, it almost makes no impact on the total SINAD as the 80 dB one dominates.

so given that the amp‘s SINAD here is 85, I infer that you actually don’t need a DAC with SINAD higher than 95 in this product.

This is corroborated by the fact that when I listened to x3400 in stereo mode it sounded exactly the same when I played music using the built-in DAC and Chord Qutest. However, when I switched to pure direct mode there was simply no question that Qutest made the sound much better. So my conjecture is that if it is tested in the pure direct mode for analogue inputs, the resulting SINAD will be higher than 85 (so that DAC’s SINAD of 95 becomes the limiting factor).

Would be really grateful if such test can be done. Thanks!

 

[North_Sky]

ESS Sabre Pro DACs?
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...-a3070-9.2-ch-x-150-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

 

[amirm]

Or go to the next level by spending $300 more ...
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

Looks like they added fan and real heatsinks to that one.

 

[maty]

Pure Direct.

PEQ and room EQ do not work. Better sound with music (if good / very good recordings) and TV stereo (depending of the frequency response of loudspeakers of course) and FM radio (classical music), Net radio [FLAC] but...


Preamp.

Those of these AVRs that have preamp output only reach up to 1.2 Vrms (RCA). It is rarely documented.

 

[North_Sky]

Looks like they added fan and real heatsinks to that one.

I prefer the transformer's positioning, and yes indeed ... extruded aluminum heatsinks.
It's 3.5 pounds heavier over the 3500.

* It should be $799 (50% off).

 

[North_Sky]

Preamp.

Those of these AVRs that have preamp output only reach up to 1.2 Vrms (RCA). It is rarely documented.

My own guess: 97-98% of the owners/buyers of this receiver (X3500H) don't use them.

* I was looking @ the DACs measurements again, and of the NAD T758 AV receiver ...
scary! I hope Denon & NAD reps or better, engineers, are reading ASR. They have to be from China, Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, Kathmandu, ...?

 

[trl]

Looks like they added fan and real heatsinks to that one.

audio.com.pl measured 44W/ch.

 

[North_Sky]

The Denon has the AK4458 chip, same as the one in the flag ship Anthem and flagship Marantz SR8012. You have to go all the way to the Denon AVR-X8500H or the Marantz AV8805 AVC to get the better AK4490. The AK4490 would be comparable to or slightly better than the ES9026Pro in the flag ship Yamahas.

So I highly doubt the poor performance is due to the DAC chip itself, but more likely due to power amp being still connected even with no speakers connected. Only the flag ship Denon (not the Marantz unfortunately) has a preamp mode that disconnects the power amp. The X3600H, X4500H and up do have the option to disconnect just the front left/right channels, by a cheating step in the amp assign procedure.

I see. So the power amp section is contaminating the preamp DAC section by not being well separated individually and shielded from each other? ...Cheap implementation...you get what you pay for ... a bunch of neat features but forget it about audiophile stereo hi-fi digital music sound quality. Think Avengers: Endgame instead?