KaiserSoze
Addicted to Fun and Learning
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A whirly bird thingymajiggy, doomaflooper scoobydoo.
That's exactly what I was going to say.
A whirly bird thingymajiggy, doomaflooper scoobydoo.
This whacky little thing looks like an acoustic Fresnel lense. Based on that scale, my guess is that it is not effective as such as the geometry is just way too small. Maybe its just a bit of technical jewelry?Yah and also the one on the MM de Capo Reference 3a Be, is pretty unusual.
I think both are hoping to draw attention to what is otherwise not interesting. Sales and or maybe they actually have developed a useful design ala KEF tangerine tweeter guides.
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Yah, I suspect likely more to drive sales than sound. That said I think that that speaker (the MM de Capo) uses shallow slops on the X-over and as such the woofer may contribute to the sound well in the range that a phase plug could truly be useful. Not that it needs to look so crazy but really with all competition these days anything to stand out is a temptation for a company.This whacky little thing looks like an acoustic Fresnel lense. Based on that scale, my guess is that it is not effective as such as the geometry is just way too small. Maybe its just a bit of technical jewelry?
Yah and also the one on the MM de Capo Reference 3a Be, is pretty unusual.
I think both are hoping to draw attention to what is otherwise not interesting. Sales and or maybe they actually have developed a useful design ala KEF tangerine tweeter guides.
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Sorry if my post wasn't clear, as the concept is really quite simple. I will try to clarify.
When tweeters are offset, each half of the speaker will radiate sound differently, and one side of the speaker's radiation will almost inevitably be better than the other. This is certainly the case for D11, as shown in my earlier post, as well as the D9 I'd tested. You, therefore, want to be careful about how you position the speakers.
Problem is, the spinorama weighs both sides of the speaker equally, probably because most speakers are indeed symmetrical. But my anecdotal experience suggests that whichever side of the speaker is closest to your sidewall will be perceptually dominant -- which I believe is an intuitive result. If the good side is closer to your sidewall, it will have a louder and earlier reflection.
Deftech clearly designed the speakers with this in mind, and it's why the speakers are specifically labeled as 'Left' and 'Right.'
I made a drawing to better illustrate what I mean:
View attachment 80032
Because the offset is mirrored, you get the same perceptual 'weighting' to the good side with the left speaker as well.
Anecdotally, the advantage of this approach was very obvious to me during testing. When I tried switching the D9 to the opposite side of what Deftech recommended, it was like a different speaker; timbrally similar, but the soundstage had compressed majorly and become relatively 'fuzzy'. (You could of course argue confirmation bias, but that's a risk we take with any sighted listening.). I also tried positioning the speakers a little bit wider to compensate for the difference in the tweeter-to-tweeter width, to no avail.
Anyway, all this is to say that I expect D11 sounds (at least a little) better than the spinorama and preference score suggest, but the reasons why are still apparent from the detailed measurements. You can of course achieve good directivity without an offset tweeter, but I believe the approach here is effective too (at least for the D9). A waveguide will usually narrow directivity, and a slightly rounded edge will only do so much. The D9 illustrates how this can work more clearly than the D11. Its 'good side', for example, had some pretty excellent results for a simple cone and dome. The 'bad' side on the other hand, was awful, but it's not what my ears picked up on... except when I inverted the setup.
As for whether the DBR-62 would be better, I agree that it's probably the better speaker, but I'm not convinced it's the better speaker. Its on-axis is kind of janky, and though it doesn't have as sharp of resonance at 600Hz, it still has a sizeable one that is wider. On-axis and PIR of the D11 and the Elac:
View attachment 80040
As for the design, the Elac is definitely closer to my personal aesthetic actually. But the deftech is really built on the exterior like a fairly high end speaker -- the aluminum faceplate is rare and it just feels all fancy - higher-end than say, the Focal Chora or Buchardt S400. It feels just as well built as the KEF R3 imo. From what I can tell the elac looks pretty nice but the finish is fairly cheap. Of course, this is all very subjective.
There are pretty much always going to be better options for cheaper of course, but I thought I'd illustrate why the speakers might not be horrendous. My pick for the price would be the Focal Chora 806, but they're definitely a step down in build quality (though more to my aesthetic).
They took it a step further by angling the tweeter. Maybe this yielded significant improvement, but it would be difficult to say.
In a crowded market, you need a unique selling point.
Angling the tweeter is "unique" and probably doesn't increase the BOM much to impact margins.
Fits with the gimmicky-looking phase plug.
I did that exact thing in this instance:wondering if you ever listen first and then take measurements. any chance you could be biased by your measurements?
Speaker Subjective Listening Test
I listened to the D11 without seeing the measurements.
This comes up a lot here. It seems like folks really expect the manual do be more than it is - something that is never read. I have to agree with the assessment that Definitive is unlikely to designed to be a fully toed in speaker purely based on intended market and home environment norms.My curiosity having gotten the best of me, I went to Definitive's site and downloaded the manual. Here's what I found: "Toeing the speakers in slightly, if possible, toward your listening area will also provide a stronger center image." The usual reason for the recommendation for toeing speakers in slightly is so that a listener sitting in the sweet spot at the middle will be more nearly on-axis, compared to what the situation would be if the speakers were aimed straight to the front and parallel. As such, I interpret this to be just the usual recommendation that the speakers should ideally be listened to on-axis to the extent practical. I don't see any reason to infer or conclude that Definitive recommends listening to these speakers off axis, and certainly no reason to think that they were designed with the express intent that they be listened to off-axis.
Listening Window may be more useful.One of you should build a web service to auto-generate the EQ settings given an on-axis graph. That way I can use it to generate a quick EQ to test.
Amir, would you be open to hosting this on ASR? I think @Maiky76 has a script that spits out EQ when fed the spinorama. I'm not sure how it will be adapted to a webpage but it should not be a huge amount of work. @Maiky76 - have you already published your program? I know you published the Spinorama score calculator, not sure about AutoEQ (TM) .One of you should build a web service to auto-generate the EQ settings given an on-axis graph. That way I can use it to generate a quick EQ to test.
This comes up a lot here. It seems like folks really expect the manual do be more than it is - something that is never read. I have to agree with the assessment that Definitive is unlikely to designed to be a fully toed in speaker purely based on intended market and home environment norms.
Lots of speakers are not designed this way but the manual is not explicit (about anything)
Andrew Jones himself said he never listens for enjoyment on axis and that that is especially true due to symmetrical L-R driver placements and diffraction. Therefore I'd suggest he doesn't really design for it but this is not in the manual, only found in an interview.
I really don't think the typical Best Buy/Crutchfield shopper is going to use toe, (maybe a little - but not fully on axis). These speakers main market (in the USA) is the typical Best Buy and Crutchfield shopper who is splurging a little.
I especially consider these are likely to end up in a home theater set up with a center channel. Toe in there is even less likely and needed.
I really don't think we should be reading the product manuals in this site for information about set-up any more than we would use the specifications published in those manuals as a substitute for the Kipple.
That is not helpful for the less experienced who come here looking for that one day or two of insight while they set-up their gear. I hope we can help them set-up correctly for the best sound regardless of what is in literature or manufacturers manuals.
IMHO even as someone who's music only stereo is center piece in my living room (no TV in this house) adjusting toe to taste is a part of the set-up. I am fine with a speaker toed completely on axis and I am fine with it straight ahead. Whatever is best. I am simple hoping to capture the best synergy with the particular speaker and the room and my personal fine tuning to taste.
When I get these at home I will deff (pun intended), play with the toe and subjectively asses. I can also take some in-room measurements at some point.
*As a side note look at the Infinity R162 and the RC263 (as measured on this site). See how the treble on axis is elevated in the R162 compared with the RC263. The off axis treble in the R162 very closely matches the RC263. These match well when the R162, being used as a L+R is not toed in very much and of course the center is completely on axis.
I found this to me to be a very clear example of Infinity's understanding of the actual common household usage and it is not mentioned in manual.
Yes although someone needs to advise as to how secure the service is.Amir, would you be open to hosting this on ASR?
Yah man, I get you.Since you wrote this as a reply to my post, it seems appropriate for me to point out that I was not asking whether it is or isn't a good idea to toe in the speakers (or to listen off-axis). I have no interest in this particular question, for reasons to include the fact that the only answers would be other people's opinions. But no worries on this though, because it was an easy misunderstanding for anyone to have made. If you have any sincere interest in correctly understanding the questions I was addressing, you may be able to satisfy that interest by reading my post again. But I expect not.
You wrote, among other things, that you agreed that it is unlikely that Definitive had designed these speakers to be "fully toed in". The reason you gave for why you decided that you were in agreement on this question is "based on intended market and home environment norms". The actual question was not per se with whether they had been designed to be "fully toed in", but rather with whether they had been designed to be listened to off-axis. The two things are very closely related of course, but I point out the distinction because I think it is an important distinction in spite of the obvious relatedness, and also because I want to share my reason for doubting that Definitive had designed the speakers with the intent that they be listened to off-axis. My reason was that this simply struck me as a very odd thing for any manufacturer to do, and instead struck me as very much the kind of thing that people pull out of thin air and then post on a Web forum where the notion is often accepted at face value by lots of sheep-people. If I ever get around to writing that book explaining how the Internet and the Web actually work, I think I'll include a chapter on this phenomenon.
That helps to explain some of what you had previously written. But you had written "Not a big deal as the speaker is specifically designed to be listened off-axis". First off I couldn't figure out exactly what it was that you decided was "Not a big deal." And then I wondered why you decided that Definitive intended for the speaker to be listened to off-axis, which struck me as sort of odd. I may have deleted the post where I started to ask you about this specifically, I don't remember whether I did. But if you only mean that Definitive recommends one specific side for the side closest to the wall, that is not entirely the same thing as listening off-axis. And maybe I already mentioned this, but when two speakers are toed in, this is to allow them to be listened to on-axis. If the speakers are aimed straight to the front and parallel to each other, there is no location in the room where both speakers can be listened to on-axis. So if Definitive actually did say that the speakers should be listened to off-axis, maybe this only means that you shouldn't toe them in.
My curiosity having gotten the best of me, I went to Definitive's site and downloaded the manual. Here's what I found: "Toeing the speakers in slightly, if possible, toward your listening area will also provide a stronger center image." The usual reason for the recommendation for toeing speakers in slightly is so that a listener sitting in the sweet spot at the middle will be more nearly on-axis, compared to what the situation would be if the speakers were aimed straight to the front and parallel. As such, I interpret this to be just the usual recommendation that the speakers should ideally be listened to on-axis to the extent practical. I don't see any reason to infer or conclude that Definitive recommends listening to these speakers off axis, and certainly no reason to think that they were designed with the express intent that they be listened to off-axis.
As for the rationale for the funky waveguide, on Definitive's site I found this: "Offsetting the tweeter by 5° delivers better high-frequency dispersion for a more precise center stereo image by eliminating undesirable symmetric diffraction off the corners of the front baffle." Until I read this I did not realize that the tweeters were angled slightly off from directly ahead (by 5 degrees evidently) in addition to the off-center placement. They had to go and obfuscate things by writing "a more precise center stereo image", which is just plain old marketing spiel, but it is apparent from the rest of the sentence that the goal of this was the fairly common goal of mitigating baffle edge diffraction. They took it a step further by angling the tweeter. Maybe this yielded significant improvement, but it would be difficult to say. In any case I do not find any reason to infer that Definitive recommends listening to these speakers slightly off-axis, and certainly nothing that would suggest to me that these speakers were designed with the express intent that they should be listened to slightly off-axis.