Could the McIntosh 12000 350watts blow the Sopra 1 speakers easily?

[Sputnik]

Of course I would be buying two subs. Why does everyone assume that I wouldn't? Why would I cheap out at this point?

I didn't include that in my original post because it's out of the context of my simple question

My reply was the first in your thread, why are you complaining to me 'that everyone assumes..?'

I answered your question, didn't try to talk you out of anything, and didn't assume anything.

You're welcome.

 

[DonH56]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible. It was a bit on the bright side, I hope that wasn't from the hiss? There were no subs at the time so I figured with some subs it would be less bright. Before I make my purchase I'll go back and listen to with the sub.

The hiss would generally exhibit as high-frequency noise. "Bright" to me indicates a treble lift that could be many things, most likely the room and/or speakers rather than the amp. Subs may help, but adjusting speaker placement, EQ (treble control), and adding room treatment are likely better solutions. Seems like hiss was not an issue for you.

I don't understand why everyone's so hard on the sopra 1, they are five grand each. The next step up is the Utopia which is 10 grand each, twice as much.

I don't know anything about the Sopra 1 and did not say anything about them except to reference the 89 dB/W/m sensitivity spec with respect to power requirements. You could check an online SPL calculator (e.g. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html ), but the question was "would a 350 W/ch amplifier damage them" and the (my) answer is "only if you play them too loudly".

As for price, I would not compare to the Utopia, but rather to other comparably-priced bookshelf and floor (tower) speakers. Since the speakers were a given I don't believe I made any comment about them. Bookshelves in general have practical limitations imposed by size that reduce their sensitivity and bass response compared to speakers with larger cabinets. But the form factor (and price) can be very important, natch.

Seems to me that 10 grand sopras 1 should match a Macintosh 15 grand amp close enough. Also, for my research I think that amp used to be 12 grand and during COVID it got hiked up

Picking by price is not always best. Not that it is necessarily wrong, but price does not always indicate performance or quality, and does not ensure a balanced system. As an extreme example, using a $10k SET amplifier with $10k ESL or hard-to-drive conventional speakers would not be an ideal match to me. OTOH I would have no problem pairing a $3k amp like Benchmark's AHB2 with my $22k/pair speakers (Revel Salon2). But that is not an integrated amplifier so I'd have to add a preamp or processor. Choosing the right system is always complicated and usually a compromise among many variables, including price.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[muslhead]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible. It was a bit on the bright side, I hope that wasn't from the hiss? There were no subs at the time so I figured with some subs it would be less bright. Before I make my purchase I'll go back and listen to with the sub.

I don't understand why everyone's so hard on the sopra 1, they are five grand each. The next step up is the Utopia which is 10 grand each, twice as much.

Seems to me that 10 grand sopras 1 should match a Macintosh 15 grand amp close enough. Also, for my research I think that amp used to be 12 grand and during COVID it got hiked up

What does price have to do with it?
I can find plenty of more expensive bookshelves that would not hold a candle to the sopra and lesser than can outperform them.
Seems your focus may be in the wrong place.

 

[Beave]

FWIW, here are measurements of the Focal Sopra 1 from Soundstage using the NRC:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

Sensitivity about 87dB/2.83V/1m

 

[dman777]

What does price have to do with it?
I can find plenty of more expensive bookshelves that would not hold a candle to the sopra and lesser than can outperform them.
Seems your focus may be in the wrong place.

what exactly is my focus? were you with me when I listened to the speakers? are you with me all the time to know every evaluation of audio product I do? Also, what is your solution? Should I listen to every combo of speaker and amp that exists? Is that what you did for you to know so much? Please tell me my focus!

 

[Puddingbuks]

If you havent’t already bought these speakers, stop, and buy a pair of the upcoming Kii Seven (or the Three), Dutch & Dutch 8C, genelec 8361 or ggntkt m1 or m3.

Active speakers that will blow away that sopra.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

@dman777
Humble advice : go back to the dealer were you've auditioned the sopra.
Bring your current amp or ask to try to with another (cheaper) amp.
I bet that you will have the same experience (unless the dealer sells broken amps or amps that are not comftable with speakers doing down to 3ohms).

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

If you havent’t already bought these speakers, stop, and buy a pair of the upcoming Kii Seven (or the Three), Dutch & Dutch 8C, genelec 8361 or ggntkt m1 or m3.

Active speakers that will blow away that sopra.

Not every body wants active speakers.
Personally I don't.
I strongly believe in DSP and will never do without.
But, personally, I don't want to put in the same box power supply, amplifier, DSP and drivers. Especially when it is about thousands of bucks.
While a good quality passive speaker can last decades.
Nor sure that all active speaker manufacturers will maintain user application to control them for decades.
And electronics can fail easily, while well made passive speakers do not!
What if the active speaker amp fails in 2 years? What if the internal power supply burns? Will it be replaced? Reparable?
If my power amp fails and I have passive speakers, I won't be stuck with broken speakers.
Thus, everybody has his own preferences and nobody's wrong.

And last, DSP+Sopra will for sure NOT "be blown away by active speakers".

 

[GXAlan]

I am slowly putting together my final system. After much time, I have picked out the Focal Sopra 1 bookshelves and the MacIntosh 12000 amp. But come to my dismay, I found the Sopra 1 recommended power is 25-150 watts (4 ohm). The MacIntosh is 350 watts x 2 (any ohm). Does this mean that there is a significant chance that I could easily blow the speakers? Like on a night when I am really getting into the music and I might turn the volume up like 70%.

The McIntosh is “any ohm” but not really. You still have to use your autoformer tap. Lets play two scenarios, 2 and 8 ohm.

At 2 ohm, 350W, when your Sopra at 90 Hz is 25 ohms, That means that even your beefy McIntosh can only deliver 28W into 25 ohms. At 8 ohm. 350W, your beefy McIntosh can deliver a clean 112 W still.

In general, the risk of blowing out a speaker is small if you are the one listening. You have a great choice with the MC12000 since it does provide you with an equalizer to tame down the treble if that’s a concern for you.

At least with McIntosh, part of the reason to go with the bigger amps is that they are better amps (the MA352 for comparison). The MA352 delivers plenty of power to the Sopra, but if you look at McIntosh’s specifications you can see it’s not quite as good.

For a setup that looks good and is reliable, it’s a great choice. You can always homebrew better stuff, but people ignore the fact that you MC12000 not only will sound great but it will be reliable.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

what exactly is my focus? were you with me when I listened to the speakers? are you with me all the time to know every evaluation of audio product I do? Also, what is your solution? Should I listen to every combo of speaker and amp that exists? Is that what you did for you to know so much? Please tell me my focus!

I think he is pointing out that you seem to indicate that because of price two parts is a good match. And that is rarely the case.

 

[GXAlan]

I think he is pointing out that you seem to indicate that because of price two parts is a good match. And that is rarely the case.

I think people can be overly focused on price. McIntosh is pricey. But it measures well, has robust customer service and a track record of reliability, and heritage/US manufacturing and assembly.

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

McIntosh MC462 Stereo Amplifier Review

McIntosh MX100 A/V Processor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

If cost were taken out of the equation, the McIntosh line would be pretty solid choices as long as you liked the looks. Criticizing someone’s preference on liking the McIntosh look is just silly.

The one real criticism I have with McIntosh is that their remote controls don’t feel premium. At that price point, having a metal remote would be great.

Along the same lines, Focal is made in France with a modern look that would fit well within a Roche Bobois catalog where a dining table is pricier than both the Focal and McIntosh gear combined. Not everyone loves the look either, but Focal’s transducers do have low distortion, and their products are used as studio monitors.

The inverted dome tweeter gives wider dispersion than anything from KEF or Revel which can generate an artificial sense of brightness but also must be taken in the context of rooms where the Focal’s are likely to be used…

 

[Galliardist]

Hmm, so you've asked another series of questions about more different combinations. I think I've caught up.

So, the McIntosh amp. It's a poor feature set for the money. The DAC is not so hot. It has fixed band tone controls. It has so many unnecessary inputs.
It seems to me to be a dealer's amp rather than an end user's. The tone controls may or may not do something to recover from a poor speaker choice, but they won't help a lot with the room. You can use it to switch between lots of inputs, but so what, unless you actually own two turntables, a bunch of different line level devices you won't use most of the features. With the DAC, it's still not an all in one solution: but you are likely to use either a digital input to the DAC (so why pay for that array of analogue inputs) or you will use a good digital source into one pair of the balanced inputs in which case the DAC is redundant.

The multichannel downconversion? I can't tell, but it doesn't appear to be e-ARC, and there's a reasonable chance that you will be downconverting elsewhere anyway.

And with the speakers you are choosing (whichever it turns out to be, Kanta 2 or Sopra 1) you can save a chunk of money using the next model down MA-9500 - which will sound identical, by the way - if you do want or need some of those features, or the McIntosh look of the 12000. I can't see any reason not to do that, at least: and I would look further down the range for better value for money, personally. You don't have to give up the looks or sufficient power.

You already have a decent Yamaha amp, as discussed earlier, that you may need to check with the Focal speakers but is probably good enough: concentrate on a source with at least PEQ if not a full DSP solution, and the way to add the subs.

(For the benefit of new readers, @dman777 has an A-S3200 amp and may be listening some of the time at close to 8m away from the speakers).

I just don't see how the MA12000 matches your needs, and suggest you reconsider.

The technical answer is that you won't destroy the speakers with the amp unless you push it very loudly, and you've told us that you probably won't. But you will carry less risk with the MA9500 for no loss whatsoever.

 

[delta76]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible. It was a bit on the bright side, I hope that wasn't from the hiss? There were no subs at the time so I figured with some subs it would be less bright. Before I make my purchase I'll go back and listen to with the sub.

I don't understand why everyone's so hard on the sopra 1, they are five grand each. The next step up is the Utopia which is 10 grand each, twice as much.

Seems to me that 10 grand sopras 1 should match a Macintosh 15 grand amp close enough. Also, for my research I think that amp used to be 12 grand and during COVID it got hiked up

The matching thing is salesman words. The higher the price, the bigger commission for them and that it. You certainly don't need 12k grand for 10k speakers. 2k amp (purifi based) is enough to drive almost every speaker you can throw at it. Heck if you want some nice brand and look then 3-4k for a NAD master series is more than enough.

 

[solderdude]

But it won't have the iconic blue meters.

 

[GXAlan]

But it won't have the iconic blue meters.

This is what you are paying for:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc-Iqvx3jYaXlmc8fpLWR9kQQ5RJ955Rk&si=rHezl1J-sf7-PgAO

 

[delta76]

if OT wants to just buy McIntosh because of the look, the brand, etc., sure, it's his money his choice. However if he simply thinks that expensive speakers need to be paired with expensive amps, then that's misled (and most likely by a salesman).
I just hope he will not throw a few thousand $ into the cables also.

 

[radix]

But it won't have the iconic blue meters.

The MA352 is 320 wpc hybrid into 4 ohm, whereas the 12000 is 300 watts constant. The 352 is a more practical size if you don't need all the inputs and still want the hybrid tube design. And it's only $7k (audioclassics has demo and used ones, but store sales only). Or an MA252 (160 wpc @ 4 ohm) might be better matched power-wise to the Sopra1, at a bargain $4500 new. Though I'd personally go for more vintage McIntosh separates.

I don't think a lot of Mc gear is over priced. It's expensive, but it has build quality, good resale value, made in usa (if that's a concern for you), support, etc. An MC312 (300 wpc @ $7500) vs 2x AHB2 (380 wpc @ 8 ohm, $7000), for example is not wildly off.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Hmm, so you've asked another series of questions about more different combinations. I think I've caught up.

So, the McIntosh amp. It's a poor feature set for the money. The DAC is not so hot. It has fixed band tone controls. It has so many unnecessary inputs.
It seems to me to be a dealer's amp rather than an end user's. The tone controls may or may not do something to recover from a poor speaker choice, but they won't help a lot with the room. You can use it to switch between lots of inputs, but so what, unless you actually own two turntables, a bunch of different line level devices you won't use most of the features. With the DAC, it's still not an all in one solution: but you are likely to use either a digital input to the DAC (so why pay for that array of analogue inputs) or you will use a good digital source into one pair of the balanced inputs in which case the DAC is redundant.

The multichannel downconversion? I can't tell, but it doesn't appear to be e-ARC, and there's a reasonable chance that you will be downconverting elsewhere anyway.

And with the speakers you are choosing (whichever it turns out to be, Kanta 2 or Sopra 1) you can save a chunk of money using the next model down MA-9500 - which will sound identical, by the way - if you do want or need some of those features, or the McIntosh look of the 12000. I can't see any reason not to do that, at least: and I would look further down the range for better value for money, personally. You don't have to give up the looks or sufficient power.

You already have a decent Yamaha amp, as discussed earlier, that you may need to check with the Focal speakers but is probably good enough: concentrate on a source with at least PEQ if not a full DSP solution, and the way to add the subs.

(For the benefit of new readers, @dman777 has an A-S3200 amp and may be listening some of the time at close to 8m away from the speakers).

I just don't see how the MA12000 matches your needs, and suggest you reconsider.

The technical answer is that you won't destroy the speakers with the amp unless you push it very loudly, and you've told us that you probably won't. But you will carry less risk with the MA9500 for no loss whatsoever.

8m??? Didn't he write that his room was only 27sqm? That makes 8m a pretty tricky listening position, unless he sits in another room

 

[Deleted member 48726]

8m??? Didn't he write that his room was only 27sqm? That makes 8m a pretty tricky listening position, unless he sits in another room

A corridor?

 

[Sokel]

A corridor?

You can put the speakers one at each side while sitting in the middle and use them as elongated headphones