Could the McIntosh 12000 350watts blow the Sopra 1 speakers easily?

[dman777]

I am slowly putting together my final system. After much time, I have picked out the Focal Sopra 1 bookshelves and the MacIntosh 12000 amp. But come to my dismay, I found the Sopra 1 recommended power is 25-150 watts (4 ohm). The MacIntosh is 350 watts x 2 (any ohm). Does this mean that there is a significant chance that I could easily blow the speakers? Like on a night when I am really getting into the music and I might turn the volume up like 70%.

 

[Sputnik]

Not easily. Listening to music, your ears will hurt and your speakers will complain before you blow them up.
Now if you have a drunk party with 30 people, that's a different story. Anything can happen on a night like that.
I do hope you're adding 2 subs to your system, because while those are nice pieces of gear, spending that much money to still not hear the full spectrum and miss out on important parts of your music would be a sad thing. If those are not in the budget, better buy a less expensive amp in favour of the subs.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The proposed combination would be a very poor use of funds all around. When I'm spending eight and a half thousand Euros on a pair of speakers, they'd better be a bit more than a pair of passive 2-way 6.5" bookshelves. There is no way that a speaker like that can be improved to a point where it's worth that amount of money, it's really bumping into physical limits hard. Maybe they're using drivers as good as Purifi's, but even then...

Spending more on the amplifier than the speakers also violates the rule of thumb that the most expensive part should be the transducers, not the electronics.

For a system costing as much as a small car, this combo would be rather disappointing. You can do much, much better.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The proposed combination would be a very poor use of funds all around. When I'm spending eight and a half thousand Euros on a pair of speakers, they'd better be a bit more than a pair of passive 2-way 6.5" bookshelves. There is no way that a speaker like that can be improved to a point where it's worth that amount of money, it's really bumping into physical limits hard. Maybe they're using drivers as good as Purifi's, but even then...

Spending more on the amplifier than the speakers also violates the rule of thumb that the most expensive part should be the transducers, not the electronics.

For a system costing as much as a small car, this combo would be rather disappointing. You can do much, much better.

You wrote what I thought.

I would even go as far as saying you would be hard pressed getting as bad value for money as this setup..

 

[radix]

The manufacturer recommend amplifier numbers do not mean a lot. Sure, the speaker should now blow up with 150w, but it does not say much about the distortion or woofer compression. I've not seen a full set of measurements for the Sopra 1 (audioholics does not measure THD).

At 89 dB sensitivity, those speakers will get plenty loud. It's just not known how loud they will play with low distortion.

Personally, I don't think the 12000 matches the Spora 1's all that well. That's a massive amp going to not-so-massive speakers.

The speakers (in general) and how they interact with the room are the #1 limiting factor for accurate sound reproduction. I'd personally spend more on well-measured large speakers and subs, then next on the amp.

If the amp is overpowered for the speakers and room, you'll always have the volume control at say 10% - 15%. I have a McIntosh 2205 (200 wpc) amp going to JBL L100s. I have the amp trim set at about 50%, which lets me turn the volume control to around 40% - 60% for loud listening.

I would prioritize as: larger speakers, 2x sub, DSP room correction, amp sized to the room and speakers, clean sources.

 

[dman777]

The proposed combination would be a very poor use of funds all around. When I'm spending eight and a half thousand Euros on a pair of speakers, they'd better be a bit more than a pair of passive 2-way 6.5" bookshelves. There is no way that a speaker like that can be improved to a point where it's worth that amount of money, it's really bumping into physical limits hard. Maybe they're using drivers as good as Purifi's, but even then...

Spending more on the amplifier than the speakers also violates the rule of thumb that the most expensive part should be the transducers, not the electronics.

For a system costing as much as a small car, this combo would be rather disappointing. You can do much, much better.

No, because I would be spending extra money two subs

 

[dman777]

Not easily. Listening to music, your ears will hurt and your speakers will complain before you blow them up.
Now if you have a drunk party with 30 people, that's a different story. Anything can happen on a night like that.
I do hope you're adding 2 subs to your system, because while those are nice pieces of gear, spending that much money to still not hear the full spectrum and miss out on important parts of your music would be a sad thing. If those are not in the budget, better buy a less expensive amp in favour of the subs.

Of course I would be buying two subs. Why does everyone assume that I wouldn't? Why would I cheap out at this point?

I didn't include that in my original post because it's out of the context of my simple question

 

[radix]

Why does everyone assume that I wouldn't?

You didn't mention subs in the original post, and we only have that to go by.

 

[radix]

Just for some scale, if you google "SPL chart" you will see that something like 110 dB SPL is a "chainsaw at 1m" and is ranked as "highly dangerous" to your hearing. Speakers with 89 dB sensitivity only need 126 watts to reach 110 dB at 1m listening distance. If you have two speakers, it would be 113 dB SPL or only 63 wpc for 110 combined.

Most of the time, people listen at say 70 - 90 dB SPL. 89 dB SPL at 1m with speakers that are 89 dB sensitivity only takes 1 watt. So if you are listening from, say 3 m away and want 6 dB of headroom for peaks, you are still only needing 36 watts.

Anyway, I think it's fine if you want to buy more power than you need. I know I usually double or triple what the calculations say. I just wanted to put out some numbers so you're clear on how much power 350 wpc is. It's a lot, especially with somewhat high sensitivity speakers at 89 dB.

 

[DonH56]

To be clear, you are considering the MA12000 integrated amp?

You probably would not blow the speakers before your ears told you they were distorting highly. Heck, a 10 W amplifier running full out at 20 kHz would likely blow most tweeters. I wouldn't necessarily be worried about overpowering them leading to damage (alcohol aside; that has been the death of many a speaker). But, too much power often means too much hiss, since you are only using the first watt or so and are nowhere near the amplifier's full power capabilities. The MA12000's SNR is rated at 114 dB at the power amp input, but only 95 dB for high-level inputs. SNR should drop by 10 dB for each 10x reduction in power, so 20 dB lower (worse) SNR if you are using 3.5 W instead of 350 W. Noise/hiss might be a problem; IMO, you should try to listen to the system before purchase if you can.

The MA12000 is their top-of-the-line; I would probably look at the lower models for those speakers and spend the money elsewhere, unless you are banking on it for the future with different speakers.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[dman777]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible. It was a bit on the bright side, I hope that wasn't from the hiss? There were no subs at the time so I figured with some subs it would be less bright. Before I make my purchase I'll go back and listen to with the sub.

I don't understand why everyone's so hard on the sopra 1, they are five grand each. The next step up is the Utopia which is 10 grand each, twice as much.

Seems to me that 10 grand sopras 1 should match a Macintosh 15 grand amp close enough. Also, for my research I think that amp used to be 12 grand and during COVID it got hiked up

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible. It was a bit on the bright side, I hope that wasn't from the hiss? There were no subs at the time so I figured with some subs it would be less bright. Before I make my purchase I'll go back and listen to with the sub.

I don't understand why everyone's so hard on the sopra 1, they are five grand each. The next step up is the Utopia which is 10 grand each, twice as much.

Seems to me that 10 grand sopras 1 should match a Macintosh 15 grand amp close enough. Also, for my research I think that amp used to be 12 grand and during COVID it got hiked up

Higher price is not = higher quality. And you sure don't mix and match by price..

 

[solderdude]

Yes, I did hear the system and I thought it was incredible.

Isn't that what counts ?
On the other hand.... did you hear it in your house ? If not it could easily not sound as incredible in different listening room conditions or at least take some effort to reach the desired sound.

When you are fine with spending the money and loved the sound then just buy it and not ask opinions of others.

 

[dman777]

Isn't that what counts ?
On the other hand.... did you hear it in your house ? If not it could easily not sound as incredible in different listening room conditions or at least take some effort to reach the desired sound.

When you are fine with spending the money and loved the sound then just buy it and not ask opinions of others.

Correct, but I did not ask the opinion on others on how it sounded. I asked a technical question.

 

[mcdn]

The highly simplified order of importance for audio is

1. Speakers & subwoofers
2. Room correction / DSP
3. Amplifiers
4. Source/DAC

The room matters too, but for most people that’s not something they can change. Spend your money on speakers (tick) subwoofers (you say you will get some, which ones and how many?), and room correction. The McIntosh amp is simply a huge waste of money. Amplification and sources are completely solved problems at this point, and at far lower price points.

 

[Beave]

How do you plan to integrate subwoofers with the bookshelf speakers when using the McIntosh amp?

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I am slowly putting together my final system. After much time, I have picked out the Focal Sopra 1 bookshelves and the MacIntosh 12000 amp. But come to my dismay, I found the Sopra 1 recommended power is 25-150 watts (4 ohm). The MacIntosh is 350 watts x 2 (any ohm). Does this mean that there is a significant chance that I could easily blow the speakers? Like on a night when I am really getting into the music and I might turn the volume up like 70%.

To actually answer your question, you won’t easily blow your speakers with the Macintosh. As long as you don’t go completely nuts with the volume control. In fact an underpowered amp that clips as it struggles to get loud enough is more likely to cause damage.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

@dman777 The system you're presenting is 27k€ at retail price!
Few comments:
- focal retail price is always too much and can always be negotiated between 20 and 30% off. I got 30% off very easily for my Kantas 2 (built on order) from authorized dealer.
- I think the macIntosh is a very expensive one that won't make things better than a much much less expensive one.
- First time I auditioned the Kantas at the dealer, it was with a very expensive Accuphase. Then I came back at the dealer with my small Boxem amp (ncore based). No difference at all... Except amp price difference.

With a very well engineered but cheaper amp (let's say in the 2k€ range for example) and focal negotiated at around 6-7K€, it would be around 8-9K€.
3 times less expensive for exact same results. About 18K€ saved!!!!

And spend a small part of what you've saved in subs and DSP!

 

[Digital_Thor]

I have tried a few times at a friend of mine, to switch between a few amplifiers and McIntosh gear - not much of a difference. The McIntosh is just more old school build... which I'm not certain is of any importance or benefit.

Here in Denmark - a pair of Focal's like the one mentioned and that amp - is double the price of just getting a pair of Kii3 or D & D 8C and be done with. They even have all the goodies build in - no worries about matching anything - just turn 'em on and listen. Well.... they have built in DSP, which needs to be adjusted for your room - but that is a universal challenge for any speaker at any price or size. You simply can't escape some kind of EQ with any speaker, if it has to be above average.

I have helped to dial in B&W 800, JM lab/Focal Utopia BE, Magico Q7 and the like - because they all need EQ to work their best in any room. They also all benefit hugely from multiple subwoofers to properly smooth out bass response.

Please give D&D and Kii a listen before spending money on anything else in that price range.

One of my friends just bought a pair of the Dutch 8C - and his comment was along the lines of "I hardly care about any other speaker anymore - they are that good".

It should be mentioned, that I have tried several times to match speakers from B&W and Dynaudio - to name a few - with much more powerful amps - to great success. My best guess is, that the complex load of these speakers passive cross-over, simply load the output of less powerful built amplifiers - to some extent I suspect the driver stage and output impedance. I can't fully prove it, but I believe that especially the hugely added control over the woofers with better designed(more powerful) amplifiers, means that a mere look on wattage, simply is not a good measure of an amplifier's ability to match a given loudspeaker.

 

[solderdude]

Correct, but I did not ask the opinion on others on how it sounded. I asked a technical question.

The technical answer is you can blow up the speaker with just about any amp when you play it too loud.

A 40W amp driven into serious clipping can kill the tweeter and a 350W amp (when driven too loud for a too long period) can destroy the tweeter but also the woofer.