Confusion over music streaming and DAC for my AVR. Do I need both?

[graystreet]

I am somewhat new to this, so please forgive me. I'm trying to figure out if I need a music streamer and a DAC, just the streamer, or if there's another path I'm not considering.

I have been working on improving my audio situation in my living room a Denon AVR-X4800 and have a 2.1 speaker setup (Arendal 1961 towers and an older HSU ULS-15 sub). I'm not loving the music streaming setup using HEOS. It's too clunky to work with as an app. I want something that works easier and can be controlled from my phone. Had I thought it through a bit more, I might have gone with an AVR that had a better streaming OS.

I was looking at the WIIM Pro or Pro Plus as a potential streamer, but am open to better options if they have a better user experience and interface, or produce a better signal for the audio. I see the Blusound Node is pretty popular.

Is my X4800H DAC good enough for streaming music to not have to worry about an external DAC, or should I get something like a SMSL SU-1 DAC (or something else)? Is the DAC in the WIIM Pro Plus superior to the Denon AVR? The DAC aspect might be more confusing to me than the streamer decision.

For streaming, I'm not committed to a platform at the moment. My wife uses Spotify, and I've been demoing Tidal HIFI+. I like it, although I'd ideally like to pay less than what Tidal charges for that. I give you this bit of information in case it's helpful for advice. I'd appreciate any direction or advice.

 

[voodooless]

You don’t need an extra DAC. The X3800h will sound best with room correction enabled, so it will add always digitize any incoming analog signal to process it.

You can just buy something like the WiiM and connect it digitally. Should work just fine.

As for Tidal vs Spotify, don’t change for the supposed sound quality difference, because likely there is none. You can try for yourself:

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and lossy audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

 

[Rednaxela]

Would the second option here work for you?

 

[ZolaIII]

Just get a WiiM Mini and plug it in with AVR trough Toslink.

 

[graystreet]

Would the second option here work for you?

Yes, that option works for Spotify. I suppose if we ditch Tidal - which does not have that option - this would be a way to go without adding additional equipment assuming there is no additional benefit from an external streamer for this setup.

 

[graystreet]

Just get a WiiM Mini and plug it in with AVR trough Toslink.

Given that we are a Google Home/Assistant household, I think if going this route we would need to step up to the Pro to gain Chromecast, group with Google Home, and Google Voice Assistant.

I'm not sure there would be a technical sound quality difference between my current Chromecast audio connected through Toslink and a Wiim Pro connected digitally. Am I correct in that thinking? I assume in both scenarios I'm using the Denon DAC?

 

[ZolaIII]

Given that we are a Google Home/Assistant household, I think if going this route we would need to step up to the Pro to gain Chromecast, group with Google Home, and Google Voice Assistant.

I'm not sure there would be a technical sound quality difference between my current Chromecast audio connected through Toslink and a Wiim Pro connected digitally. Am I correct in that thinking? I assume in both scenarios I'm using the Denon DAC?

Yes in both cases you would use embedded DAC in AVR along with it's DSP. App is the same for Mini/Pro, I don't use assistants and Mini has absolutely transport optical out so it's cheap way to get what you want and don't care much about it.

 

[graystreet]

Yes in both cases you would use embedded DAC in AVR along with it's DSP. App is the same for Mini/Pro, I don't use assistants and Mini has absolutely transport optical out so it's cheap way to get what you want and don't care much about it.

That makes sense. I'd have to keep a Chromecast on another input if I wanted to keep the AVR in the cast network and be about to stream around the home in a Google Home audio group. That feature alone would bump me to the Wiim Pro.

I guess the dangling question out there is if there are alternatives I should be considering that might have a better app or user experience. For what it's worth, on the Google Play app store (Android), the Wiim and Roon apps have a 3.8★ and 3.7★ rating, respectively. The BluOS app is 4.1★. I'm not sure how much can be inferred from that data.

I wish someone would better combine audio and video streaming ecosystems. Then, things like Tidal's videos and YouTube Music videos could play through them as well.

 

[ZolaIII]

@graystreet there is no great app when it comes to streamer's. Most complains are about the cosmetics looks and don't reflect the real qualities or flows. So ranking doesn't have much sense. Best ranked is still MusicCast (Yamaha), Sonos and WiiM aps are very look alike to it. Didn't mess with BlueOS app or device's. What whose messured hire didn't show very good results and price is considerable for what you get so better going with something else.
As much as I know WiiM is working on improving it's app adding PEQ and such to the devices that can support it. Mini is basic and won't get some of such futures but I don't see a reason for you to go with something better as AVR will do decoding/processing and DAC functions anyway.
Take a look at it in the way it works good, you didn't pay much for it and when it stops you buy other one which will be actual then. That's much better then paying a nice amount of money getting only a little better user experience with something from Yamaha even if it will work considerably longer. This thing's change fast so no need to do something like that. At least that's my opinion regarding that. Have a nice time and have fun!

 

[Open Mind Audio]

Too bad the HEOS user experience does not appear to have improved, even after all these years.

In your situation, keeping it simple, a good option would be to avoid an extra box and instead experiment with free or low-cost streamer software that will control your Denon. Roon is great if you're open to spending money -- though it's fairly expensive for the Denon, given Roon on the Denon AVR is limited to Airplay (convenient but without the high res element). Still, to me that is well worth it for the ease and pleasure of using Roon. But if you don't want to splurge for Roon, you can try JRiver for a much lower cost, and I imagine any number of other low-cost or free controller apps will send music to the Denon, in place of HEOS.

In part it's a matter of where your music is coming from. If you're listening via Spotify or Amazon Music, those should allow you to stream to the Denon straight from their own native apps. Honestly, if 90% or more of the time you use one app (Amazon Music, Apple Music, etc.), I'd just use that and not worry about it. If you are playing from multiple music services or from a networked PC or USB drive, then JRiver, Roon or Plex could work, allowing you to more seamlessly switch between your own files and/or several different online music services.

You'll learn more by experimenting with these options -- and there are plenty of others worth trying, such as MusicBee or Foobar. I'm not sure if they'll play to Denon but they might.

Anyway, that will be easier and more instructive as a first step before getting a Wiim to replicate functions already inside your Denon AVR.

Finally, one additional option would be to try Qobuz or Tidal for awhile. They are great services (I use Qobuz, as a complement to my personal hard drive of digital music). You might find you have everything you feel you want, streamed to the Denon. And you can play from Qobuz without opening HEOS.

PS - Just noticed you are trying Tidal. If you already have Amazon Prime, then you could try the music service, which ends up costing less than Tidal or Qobuz.

 

[graystreet]

Too bad the HEOS user experience does not appear to have improved, even after all these years.

In your situation, keeping it simple, a good option would be to avoid an extra box and instead experiment with free or low-cost streamer software that will control your Denon. Roon is great if you're open to spending money -- though it's fairly expensive for the Denon, given Roon on the Denon AVR is limited to Airplay (convenient but without the high res element). Still, to me that is well worth it for the ease and pleasure of using Roon. But if you don't want to splurge for Roon, you can try JRiver for a much lower cost, and I imagine any number of other low-cost or free controller apps will send music to the Denon, in place of HEOS.

In part it's a matter of where your music is coming from. If you're listening via Spotify or Amazon Music, those should allow you to stream to the Denon straight from their own native apps. Honestly, if 90% or more of the time you use one app (Amazon Music, Apple Music, etc.), I'd just use that and not worry about it. If you are playing from multiple music services or from a networked PC or USB drive, then JRiver, Roon or Plex could work, allowing you to more seamlessly switch between your own files and/or several different online music services.

You'll learn more by experimenting with these options -- and there are plenty of others worth trying, such as MusicBee or Foobar. I'm not sure if they'll play to Denon but they might.

Anyway, that will be easier and more instructive as a first step before getting a Wiim to replicate functions already inside your Denon AVR.

Finally, one additional option would be to try Qobuz or Tidal for awhile. They are great services (I use Qobuz, as a complement to my personal hard drive of digital music). You might find you have everything you feel you want, streamed to the Denon. And you can play from Qobuz without opening HEOS.

PS - Just noticed you are trying Tidal. If you already have Amazon Prime, then you could try the music service, which ends up costing less than Tidal or Qobuz.

Yes, I have experience with Tidal, Spotify, and YouTube Music. Most of these would work fine for me if they offered the same quality. Tidal and Amazon have the best quality.

That said, only Spotify has direct integration with the receiver. The others would have to go through HEOS, which is terrible because you can't initiate the music from the service's app; you have to initiate it from HEOS for some unfortunate reason. I use Android, not iOS, so Airplay isn't an option for me.

This is what sent me here looking for a third party box/software solution. I can use my Chromecast Audio as previously mentioned, but it's not a great solution.

 

[Tre2023]

The Wiim Pro Plus supports Spotify Connect and Tidal Connect. So, you could use the Spotify and Tidal apps from your preferred Smart device to direct audio from those services to the receiver. If you care about hi-res output, Chromecast will be limited to 24/96.

Tidal's Dolby Atmos tracks are supported on devices such as the Amazon Fire Cube, Apple TV 4K, LG TVs and the Nvidia Shield Pro if you should have any of those devices.

 

[graystreet]

The Wiim Pro Plus supports Spotify Connect and Tidal Connect. So, you could use the Spotify and Tidal apps from your preferred Smart device to direct audio from those services to the receiver. If you care about hi-res output, Chromecast will be limited to 24/96.

Tidal's Dolby Atmos tracks are supported on devices such as the Amazon Fire Cube, Apple TV 4K, LG TVs and the Nvidia Shield Pro if you should have any of those devices.

I do have an Nvidia Shield Pro and it's the only source I really use for video through the AVR-X4800H. Would I be able to get hi-res audio output from the Shield Pro to the AVR? I hadn't thought of that because I mostly have read that the Tidal app on the Shield puts out about -10 dB compared to other sources when playing from that app.

I didn't think of the Shield's Chromecast feature and how that might bypass the Tidal app and pass along a hi-fi digital output via HDMI to the Denon AVR. I could use Chromecast from my phone to the Shield instead of using the Chromecast Audio or buying a Wiim Pro. I don't think I need a Wiim Pro Plus in any scenario, unless I'm misunderstanding the feature differences. It's my understanding that the Wiim Pro Plus just adds a better DAC, but through my setup the DAC is not being used with the AVR.

I suppose the setup could be configured to use the Wim DAC if it is known that the Denon AVR-X4800H DAC is inferior to the Wiim Pro Plus DAC. Is that the case?

As a side note, my goal is to settle on just one music streaming service. I don't see the advantage to maintaining more than one subscription. I'd prefer to have my listening history and playlists not spread out across multiple services.

 

[graystreet]

One thing I've noticed as a potential upside for using the Nvidia Shield Pro as the Chromecast for streaming music is that it will play music videos from Tidal (and presumably from Youtube Music or other streaming services that offer video blended in).

One downside is that it always turns my TV on when playing music, and sometimes I just want to play music while I'm working and don't need to have the TV on.

 

[Tre2023]

If you don't like the HEOS app and prefer using the Tidal app in your source device, you might try using the WiiM Pro Plus using Tidal Connect and connected to the Denon via optical cable to use the DAC in the receiver. You wouldn't need to use the Nvidia Shield Pro and TV at all. Using Chromecast to send audio to any device limits the signal to 24/96. Tidal Connect supports Tidal MAX(24/192 FLAC.)

 

[graystreet]

If you don't like the HEOS app and prefer using the Tidal app in your source device, you might try using the WiiM Pro Plus using Tidal Connect and connected to the Denon via optical cable to use the DAC in the receiver. You wouldn't need to use the Nvidia Shield Pro and TV at all. Using Chromecast to send audio to any device limits the signal to 24/96. Tidal Connect supports Tidal MAX(24/192 FLAC.)

That's helpful to know. It's unfortunate that despite my best efforts to move away from discrete devices for every feature of my humble living room system, I still can't seem to get everything into the AVR. I suppose that was my fault for not better researching just how Tidal is implemented with Denon receivers through HEOS. I assumed it was similar to the Spotify integration.

 

[Chrispy]

I didn't feel like joining the Heos club (i.e. membership/signup sort of thing) so I just stream from my pc/phone/tablet via DLNA or audio chromecasts to my avrs. I don't think your Denon has the equivalent connect feature for Tidal as it has for Spotify.

 

[graystreet]

I didn't feel like joining the Heos club (i.e. membership/signup sort of thing) so I just stream from my pc/phone/tablet via DLNA or audio chromecasts to my avrs. I don't think your Denon has the equivalent connect feature for Tidal as it has for Spotify.

It does not. It has Spotify connect, but not Tidal connect. Tidal has to be done through HEOS, which does not allow you to initiate or control Tidal from the Tidal app.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It does not. It has Spotify connect, but not Tidal connect. Tidal has to be done through HEOS, which does not allow you to initiate or control Tidal from the Tidal app.

If you have an iOS device you can use mconnect. It does not need the Heos app and uses UPNP. It works for Tidal, Quobuz and local music servers. I use it with my X3700 since about 3 years streaming from Quobuz.

Here is a screenshot

 

[graystreet]

If you have an iOS device you can use mconnect. It does not need the Heos app and uses UPNP. It works for Tidal, Quobuz and local music servers. I use it with my X3700 since about 3 years streaming from Quobuz.

That's helpful for people with iOS who find this thread. I'm Android, so it does not apply to me.

From what I've gathered so far in my research, it looks like my takeaways are the following (someone correct me if any of these assumptions are not true):

• My NVIDIA Shield TV Pro 2019 connected to my Denon AVR-X4800H is not going to work for hi-res audio controlled by the Tidal app (or Amazon Music app) on my phone because it will only use Chromecast, and Chromecast downgrades all audio to 24/96.
• For a music streamer for hi-res audio, it seems the general consensus is that the WiiM family of products has as good or better user interface for music library and playlist discovery for streaming services as any other music streamer, while at the same time not requiring the use of the internal software because it supports most "connect" services to be controlled natively through the music streamings service apps.
• The Wiim Mini will get my all of the above, but if I want Chromecast integrated and the ability to group with my Google Home speakers throughout my house, I'll need to bump up to the Pro. The only reason to bump up to the Pro Plus is for the DAC, which is no better than the DAC inside the Denon AVR-X4800H.