Confused between various supposedly "similar" Genelecs

[goofytwoshoes]

@goofytwoshoes - In your experience, assuming a SAM setup in a 2.1 configuration in a living room for music listening purposes, would you still calibrate with GLM considering the fact that one may not always sit in the assigned MLP? I know GLM can accommodate for averaging for a wider listening area and that is what I'd opt for but my point is; it's better to have calibration in place even for off-axis listening. My source will probably be a Wiim Ultra. Hmmm, I take note of the interface mismatch (RCA vs XLR). I know the Gen monitors incorporate level controls but is it better to invest in a professional RCA to XLR converter for better dynamics? I guess one could opt for an Eversolo unit that has balanced outputs but the price difference is not small.

Furthermore, has anyone had the opportunity to compare the KALI SM-5 to the Gen Ones? @Ellebob - you might be able to answer that question.

GLM will save as many calibrations as you like. You can calibrate for a single listening position, and then again with several listening positions, and easily toggle between them to compare. I listen alone, so did not calibrate for several places. I sometimes recline on my couch so calibrated for that position, too, it does make a slight difference when I toggle with main listening position.

If you will use the Wiim Ultra only to feed digital to Genelec speakers, from an Ethernet connection, you are paying for features that you will not use.

The Neutrik converter uses a transformer to match the 75 Ohm input on BNC to 110 Ohm output on XLR AES cable. The Neutrik (recommended by Genelec) is very inexpensive, and even more so buying used on eBay. Canare is cheaper, still. Both have BNC inputs, so an RCA to BNC coaxial cable is needed.

XLR outputs on Eversolo are analog, I think. You can connect to the analog inputs on the Genelecs, but that adds an extra Digital to Analog coversion, which is undesirable. Eversolo has digital out on coax, but if not using it's other features, a big waste of money, maybe.

Does the Kali include a mic/software calibration option? If not, IMHO there is no way it can equal Genelec with the GLM kit. Also, read about the GRADE report on Genelec's website.

I also have a pair of Genelec 8030C speakers beside the 8330A, on identical stands. With GLM calibration off, there is little or no difference between them. With calibration on, difference is night and day, even in a room that is far from ideal. This is with the 7350A sub bypassed. With the sub in circuit, the bass is nicely reinforced and you have the option of increasing/decreasing volume in the software to your heart's content. I have a pair of the subs, but in my room the second one is not needed. In large rooms and/or at very high volume, the second one may help.

Also, I control volume/mute and on/off with Genelec's wireless 6-button remote. It is excellent.

 

[Sam Ash]

If you will use the Wiim Ultra only to feed digital to Genelec speakers, from an Ethernet connection, you are paying for features that you will not use.

The Neutrik converter uses a transformer to match the 75 Ohm input on BNC to 110 Ohm output on XLR AES cable. The Neutrik (recommended by Genelec) is very inexpensive, and even more so buying used on eBay. Canare is cheaper, still. Both have BNC inputs, so an RCA to BNC coaxial cable is needed.

@goofytwoshoes - Could you kindly clarify the above. I guess what I am trying to figure out is how it is all connected.

1. Calibrate the system using GLM, save the settings and disconnect GLM. Then connect a Streaming preamp to the Gen sub input and connect the L and R monitors via the balanced outs on the sub. This ensures the XO is being done via the sub and the room eq set by GLM is always in affect. - Is that right?

2. Connecting the monitors to the outputs of a Wiim Ultra and the connect the sub via the Wiim Ultra's sub out is another way to connect it but this would mean setting the XO within the Wiim Ultra. Would the room eq still be in affect?

3. I suppose what you are talking about is permanently incorporating GLM and controlling it via the GLM unit and software. Does the GLM unit have digital inputs? Is this the configuration that enables a digital workflow and be controlled via the Gen Remote Control unit?

The first two options would be analogue workflows, the last would be digital.

 

[goofytwoshoes]

@goofytwoshoes - Could you kindly clarify the above. I guess what I am trying to figure out is how it is all connected.

1. Calibrate the system using GLM, save the settings and disconnect GLM. Then connect a Streaming preamp to the Gen sub input and connect the L and R monitors via the balanced outs on the sub. This ensures the XO is being done via the sub and the room eq set by GLM is always in affect. - Is that right?

2. Connecting the monitors to the outputs of a Wiim Ultra and the connect the sub via the Wiim Ultra's sub out is another way to connect it but this would mean setting the XO within the Wiim Ultra. Would the room eq still be in affect?

3. I suppose what you are talking about is permanently incorporating GLM and controlling it via the GLM unit and software. Does the GLM unit have digital inputs? Is this the configuration that enables a digital workflow and be controlled via the Gen Remote Control unit?
The first two options would be analogue workflows, the last would be digital.

Digital coax, with either RCA or BNC connectors, and AES/EBU digital cable with XLR connectors all carry the same SPDIF signal. The digital coax is 75 Ohm impedance, the AES cable is 110 Ohm. The Neutrik is a very small device that goes between the two cables to prevent an impedance mismatch. This coax-Neutrik-AES cable connects the streamer's digital RCA output to the Genelec's digital XLR input. If using a 7350A (or similar) sub, the cable must connect to the sub first, then from the sub's digital out to a speaker's digital in, then from that speaker's digital out to the second speaker's digital in.

The GLM box, which handles calibration and control functions, does not connect at all with the audio signal. It uses an ethernet cable to connect to the closest speaker, that speakers has two ethernet ports so a cable goes from the second port to the next speaker, etc. Does not matter what order the speakers are connected. The GLM box also connects to a computer running GLM software via USB. There's also a connector on the box to plug in the calibrated mic. The calibration cycle sends test signals to each speaker/sub in turn, over this ethernet cable control system, at a fixed volume. The software automatically determines PEQ for each speaker, and any delay if one speaker is slightly closer, and sets speaker balance and, if connected to a sub also sets the correct phase for the sub in relation to the closest speaker.

I leave the GLM box connected to the computer. That computer has Roon Control on it to tell my Roon ROCK server what music to send to the streamer, which is a Roon Endpoint, and on to the Genelec sub/speaker system. so it is always on, anyway. There are simple USB to digital coax devices if you want to play music from a computer directly to the first Genelec speaker, instead of through a streamer.

The above connections are all digital, the Genelec SAM subs and speakers each have their own DAC.

Have not answered all your queries yet. Is the above about as clear as mud now?

 

[Sam Ash]

@goofytwoshoes - What a clear and concise explanation, thank you so much!

That makes a lot of sense, it has helped me to understand the concept of maintaining a digital workflow.

In such a case, I suppose one loses control over volume from the phone app associated with a dedicated music streamer. Hence the need for the Genelec remote control ,is that correct? Are there certain streamers that are able to control volume through the digital interface?

Furthermore, with a digital workflow, one would need just a streaming transport with digital coaxial out. The small Wiim entry level streamer only has optical (Toslink) out but I'm sure an adapter could be used in this case too to convert from digital optical to digital coaxial.

 

[goofytwoshoes]

I have the Fiio SR11 streamer ($139 in Canada), with volume control and also a remote control for volume and other functions (no cellphone app). However, Genelec recommends that volume not be attenuated prior to input to the speaker, so I got their 6-button remote which works very well. Can also control volume easily in the GLM software screen on the connected computer.

An ideal streamer would have digital AES/EBU output, so a simple AES cable with XLR connectors on both ends would be all that is needed. Optical does not allow volume control, IIRC. I am very pleased with the coax-Neutrik-AES cable setup that I'm using.

My understanding is that the analog inputs on the speakers and sub immediately go to an ADC, and after all DSP etc the signal goes to the internal DACs. If you are sending audio from an analog tape machine or a turntable to a preamp, to the speakers, then you must use the analog input. But, if streaming music to an external DAC, then to the analog inputs on the speakers, the signal is going from digital to analog before the speakers, then back to digital and again to analog inside the speakers. Probably not a good idea if you want to maintain best sound quality. I use the analog input only for TV/Netflix/etc sound, and it's great for that.

Genelec has a huge number of good videos accessible on their YouTube channel, that do a much better job of explaining all this than what I have done with my limited use of their products. Also, the GLM Kit manual is available to download on their website, and it is nothing short of excellent. It is 110 pages. I printed and bound it, and read it a little at a time as I listen to music. I know there are aspects of the SAM system that I am not using yet, that I should be using. Also, read about GRADE reports.

 

[unpluggged]

Digital coax, with either RCA or BNC connectors, and AES/EBU digital cable with XLR connectors all carry the same SPDIF signal.

They do not. While most AES3 receivers can decode S/PDIF format, AES3 signal has ten times higher magnitude, and some less sensitive AES3 receivers might have problems dealing with them. Such is the case with my HEDD monitors that work with S/PDIF signal (using a passive impedance transformer such as the Neutrik or Canare) only with cables up to about 2.5 m in length, and daisy-chaining them with an AES3 cable in this case also breaks the connection. So I ended up using a cheap active S/PDIF to AES3 converter from AliExpress, and it works fine.

So YMMV.

 

[Sam Ash]

They do not. While most AES3 receivers can decode S/PDIF format, AES3 signal has ten times higher magnitude, and some less sensitive AES3 receivers might have problems dealing with them. Such is the case with my HEDD monitors that work with S/PDIF signal (using a passive impedance transformer such as the Neutrik or Canare) only with cables up to about 2.5 m in length, and daisy-chaining them with an AES3 cable in this case also breaks the connection. So I ended up using a cheap active S/PDIF to AES3 converter from AliExpress, and it works fine.

So YMMV.

Thank you for your input. Can you kindly provide the link to the product on AliExpress.

 

[unpluggged]

Thank you for your input. Can you kindly provide the link to the product on AliExpress.

They can be called variously and sold by different vendors in different regions, but they all look like this:

Make sure you get the S/PDIF in to AES out variant (male XLR). There are also Toslink to AES3 converters of the same design, BTW.

 

[alankila]

They do not. While most AES3 receivers can decode S/PDIF format, AES3 signal has ten times higher magnitude, and some less sensitive AES3 receivers might have problems dealing with them. Such is the case with my HEDD monitors that work with S/PDIF signal (using a passive impedance transformer such as the Neutrik or Canare) only with cables up to about 2.5 m in length, and daisy-chaining them with an AES3 cable in this case also breaks the connection. So I ended up using a cheap active S/PDIF to AES3 converter from AliExpress, and it works fine.

So YMMV.

This is correct.

In my experience, Genelec products probably can handle something like 48 kHz 24-bit S/PDIF digital audio input reliably, but they tend to act unstable at the higher rates, such as 96 kHz, with the sound constantly fading in and out, seemingly never stabilizing. Highest rate I ever made work quasi-reliably is 88200 Hz in S/PDIF, but the syncing took a minute or two until it finally stabilized, but then it seemed to work for the rest of the session. To workaround the problem, I could force the soundcard to stay running forever and maintain continuous signal with the Genelec units, which more or less worked as long as I never rebooted.

To ultimately solve these issues, I bought an odd PC soundcard with USB plug at one end and AES/EBU XLR plug at the other end. The soundcard I chose costed $59 in Amazon, and I think it was simply called USB AES/EBU adapter, rather than soundcard which it rightly is. Linux identifies it as "Comtrue Inc. SXW-MDL7601-INTCLK_A2" and it came in an electrostatic bag without a cardboard box or any labeling, so you can tell what a quality product it is . After that, 96 kHz and 24-bit audio was fine, which is a decent match to the unit's 64-bit floating point and 96 kHz sample rate.

 

[Sam Ash]

They can be called variously and sold by different vendors in different regions, but they all look like this:

View attachment 440714

Make sure you get the S/PDIF in to AES out variant (male XLR). There are also Toslink to AES3 converters of the same design, BTW.

Can't seem to locate this on AliExpress. Mind checking your supplier and sharing a link since the one you got works.

 

[Sam Ash]

Managed to find this product on AliExpress. I suppose a powered impedance matching would still be required in the chain.

Would be nice to have everything in one converter unit.

 

[Sam Ash]

From what I understand, some Wiim streamers are able to control volume via digital out - from the phone app.

 

[unpluggged]

Can't seem to locate this on AliExpress. Mind checking your supplier and sharing a link since the one you got works.

Looks like this is the one I have: https://aliexpress.com/item/1005006072154344.html

Managed to find this product on AliExpress. I suppose a powered impedance matching would still be required in the chain.

Right, this one does not have a proper AES3 output.

From what I understand, some Wiim streamers are able to control volume via digital out - from the phone app.

All of them, AFAIR, and with their own remote, too.

 

[goofytwoshoes]

NADITBNC-M

Female BNC 75 Ω input - male XLR chassis connector 110 Ω output. Interface balanced and coaxial lines.

www.neutrik.com

This is the Neutrik Digital Audio Impedance Transformer that Genelec recommends. BNC input on one end, AES XLR output on the other end. I have a coax connected to the RCA out on a Fiio SR11 streamer, with a BNC connector on the other end to plug into the Neutrik, and a normal AES digital cable from the Neutrik to the Genelec 7350A sub's digital input. Coax is about 6 feet, AES cable is about 10 feet. The Neutrik is not powered, and works perfectly. I've been streaming Tidal/Qobuz from Roon ROCK server to the Fiio, to the sub. 24/192 files play perfectly, never a glitch.

 

[Sam Ash]

Looks like this is the one I have: https://aliexpress.com/item/1005006072154344.html


All of them, AFAIR, and with their own remote, too.

Thank you for the correct link, much appreciated. I will look for one that has Optical Toslink input and AES output. That way I can use a Wiim Mini streamer as a transport.

Although I don't mind using a separate remote control unit to adjust volume, I'd rather prefer to control the volume from within the app on my phone.

I read somewhere that Gen monitors integrate really well with Gen subs in conjunction with GLM. Hence my interest to eventually take this route. The alternative would be use a streamer like Wiim Ultra and run a pair of G Fours via RCA analogue outs on the Ultra and run a third party sub via the sub-out on the Ultra. This second option is a lot more cost effective.

 

[Sam Ash]

NADITBNC-M

Female BNC 75 Ω input - male XLR chassis connector 110 Ω output. Interface balanced and coaxial lines.

www.neutrik.com

This is the Neutrik Digital Audio Impedance Transformer that Genelec recommends. BNC input on one end, AES XLR output on the other end. I have a coax connected to the RCA out on a Fiio SR11 streamer, with a BNC connector on the other end to plug into the Neutrik, and a normal AES digital cable from the Neutrik to the Genelec 7350A sub's digital input. Coax is about 6 feet, AES cable is about 10 feet. The Neutrik is not powered, and works perfectly. I've been streaming Tidal/Qobuz from Roon ROCK server to the Fiio, to the sub. 24/192 files play perfectly, never a glitch.

That is really good to know, thank you.

I currently use Spotify. However, on the high-res streaming services (Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon, Apple) is the standard resolution 24/192?

 

[Sam Ash]

I don't want to spark an endless debate please. This question is directed to @goofytwoshoes and @unpluggged who have been exceptionally kind and helpful. Furthermore, I think they are both experienced in the matter being discussed which is key.

When running high-end and reputable monitoring systems and maintaining a digital workflow, is there an audible difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192 even if it is subtle?

I'm not a sound engineer, I'm just a music lover but sound fidelity is important to me.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Sam Ash

Yes, I think it is if it is a genuine Hires recording. And there is a big difference, which usually manifests itself in an increased sense of realism/presence.
At least with the Genelecs you can hear the differences.

 

[unpluggged]

When running high-end and reputable monitoring systems and maintaining a digital workflow, is there an audible difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192 even if it is subtle?

No, especially when the DSP in the speakers always resamples the signal to its internal sample rate (which is usually 48 or 96 kHz), often even when the incoming signal has the same SR, to decouple clock domains. Any potential differences from using different low-pass filters at various sample rates are thus eliminated.

 

[goofytwoshoes]

I don't want to spark an endless debate please. This question is directed to @goofytwoshoes and @unpluggged who have been exceptionally kind and helpful. Furthermore, I think they are both experienced in the matter being discussed which is key.

When running high-end and reputable monitoring systems and maintaining a digital workflow, is there an audible difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192 even if it is subtle?

I'm not a sound engineer, I'm just a music lover but sound fidelity is important to me.

My ears are 75+ years old, and were sometimes blasted by too-loud concerts in the long-ago, so I trust them only to make my music listening pleasurable. I bought the Genelecs because I wanted a smaller system that could move with me no matter where I go. Martin Logan electrostatics, Pass Labs amps, Meitner preamp, Pontus DAC were wonderful. And the Genelec SAM setup is also wonderful, and in some ways better sounding. That said, I usually melt into the music as I listen, and do not pick apart the small details except when calibrating. I'm happy playing the best-available format of music I like, even if it is AAC.

I find that well-recorded/mastered 16/44 files are better than carelessly processed 24/192 files, so I tend not to sweat the small stuff. Besides, Drambuie on ice and a microdose make ANYTHING sound excellent, if your brain is into it.