Chord DAVE Review (DAC & HP Amp)

[simbloke]

We know none of this in play as it would have been trivial for company to show measurements of their own that are different. Instead we have tacit acknowledgement of a number of issues I have found.

Funny how all the glowing reviews are not accused of having golden samples.

 

[Purité Audio]

Amir sure is unlucky every poor measuring component has either been broken or of unknown provenance even poor J’s which was purchased new, what are the chances.
Keith

 

[DonR]

Those are words , as this is ASR can you give me a technical definition please

Measures in the middle third of all samples.

 

[Jimster480]

this is capatalism, people make money over and above what it costs them to make
they add some bling and people choose it

I am not sure what the problem is

many many manufacturers overhype their equipment , and people buy it on that basis , there is a legal right to recourse should there be true misrepresentation and malicious intent

at the end of the day Rob Watts is a consultant to chord, not the manufacturer , how he is paid by them I don’t know, do you ?

whether it’s per unit fee, a retainer or a flat fee I have no idea do you ?

he designed a product, they made it, it sold , end of story

whether ASR says it measures well or not is actually irrelevant in commercial enterprise and ah 7 years too late as it was released way back when , this ship has long long sailed , Ferrari 308 are imho a heap of junk, people still bought them because of the name and the looks it is a commercial enterprise and people are still re-buying them go figure ?

Many of the hypercars are really not that great. But at the end of the day; they are faster than most regular cars on the Road and even most regular Sports cars. While reliability is not exactly a big priority for Ferrari they know that their customers can afford it.
You are also taking this out in the world and while it's still not my cup of tea to drive a car that is so unreliable you can at least show that you have such a thing and have some fun with it in the real world.

If a Ferrari was slower than a Corolla nobody would care about it's. And if Ferrari claimed that it was faster than a Corvette but it actually lost to a Corolla or a Honda civic. Then people who bought it would be quite upset. I feel like this is kind of what is going on here. Because even on the day of release the Dave is honestly not much better than any competent DAC of the time and is worse than most other competent stacks of the time especially if you look at companies like benchmark.

 

[DonR]

Many of the hypercars are really not that great. But at the end of the day; they are faster than most regular cars on the Road and even most regular Sports cars. While reliability is not exactly a big priority for Ferrari they know that their customers can afford it.
You are also taking this out in the world and while it's still not my cup of tea to drive a car that is so unreliable you can at least show that you have such a thing and have some fun with it in the real world.

If a Ferrari was slower than a Corolla nobody would care about it's. And if Ferrari claimed that it was faster than a Corvette but it actually lost to a Corolla or a Honda civic. Then people who bought it would be quite upset. I feel like this is kind of what is going on here. Because even on the day of release the Dave is honestly not much better than any competent DAC of the time and is worse than most other competent stacks of the time especially if you look at companies like benchmark.

When it comes to DACs they are all subject to the "speed limit" of audible transparency. Most DACs over $150 reach that limit.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Measures in the middle third of all samples.

That will do. It was never meant to be anything other than vague.

 

[DonR]

That will do. It was never meant to be anything other than vague.

Much like their marketing then.

 

[Jimster480]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...review-portable-dac-hp-amp.35812/post-1255854

Good example. There are many more when it comes to this company.

I nearly choked when I saw the $14K price. I'll put my RME up against Dave all day long. I paid $700 for it.

The Army is a real product that is competent.

Mart, I have to defer to your greater range of associates who may well own and love these things. In my local audio salon, they're regarded with varying degrees of reverence and aspiration. They genuinely believe the units are the best because they've been told so (and if they attended a presentation, RW spins a wonderful yarn). Apparently, a chap with Kii Threes bought an M-Scaler to go with the controller and apparently felt the 'sound' was better, so what do I/we know other than the fact he had the money to buy it and listened sighted. maybe one day he'll take it out and find no difference other than a difference in perceived gain...

I would imagine it is the case for most of these people. I know that when I was starting out in the audio world that many people told me I should save up for one of these products. Other people told me that I needed a yggdrasil to really be able to enjoy music.
The thing is that the head fi forum (and sbaf if that crap is still around) are big group think projects where there are tons of people who are totally blinded and give everyone who is starting off the absolute worst advice. Thankfully I think for myself entirely and this stuff did not work on me.

 

[Jimster480]

Yes, spot on. People spend money on DACs because they think they improve the sound, plain and simple. Some of my friends have commented on my speakers when visiting. Occasionally someone finds the tube amps exotic because they're not that common these days. No one has ever said anything or cared about the DAC or M Scaler (or Topping for that matter).

DACs are not statement pieces. If they were, you'd see Bose and Bang & Olufson all over standalone DACs.

Exactly. If you are a non-audiophile person and you want to buy something which is pretty nice then you buy a bang & Olufson or a Bose or even Denon. However in the case of Denon at least they have made lots of high quality stuff in the past.
People have been to my house and commented on my Klipsch speakers for my TV or My Denon digital music players.
No one has ever commented on my audio stack other than to ask "what's that". When I tell them; they say "all of that to play music?" I usually say; " if you want your life ruined and to go down a rabbit hole then I'll turn it on for you and let you listen to a track".

 

[Jimster480]

When it comes to DACs they are all subject to the "speed limit" of audible transparency. Most DACs over $150 reach that limit.

Well that is exactly correct. So it doesn't really make sense because in the world of automobiles even if you are restricted to the speed limit: you are typically not limited by how fast you can get to the speed limit. Or how well your car handles.
In the case of audio there is literally no other metric for a DAC other than input output features. So I can understand when people own DACs up to around $1,200 because they have the features that they're looking for.
Yes you are paying 10 times the state of Art performance but you are also getting features you cannot get for Less money. Or the form factor etc. Kind of like if you want to have a fast SUV or sedan this will cost more money than a fast two-seater Sports car.
While the multiplier for audio is quite a bit higher they can't be directly correlated. But I don't think you would see too many people signing up for 150k SUVs that are only as fast as $15, 000 cars.
But when it comes to something like the Dave they are promising Koenigsegg or McLaren tier performance and delivering less than Honda Civic Type R Performance for a price more equivalent to a koenigsegg.

 

[tmtomh]

The ultimater, obviously. A true audiophile never stops "upgrading."

Indeed. They critique us for being more interested in equipment and measurements than in music - and yet for many of them "the journey" appears to be the primary thing.

 

[Angsty]

Hop onto Head-Fi - lots of happy Chord customers seem un-phased by the measurements.

The Chord products do not universally test poorly, but they are less competitive than less expensive products. The Mojo and Qutest, in particular, did well in ASR testing. The DAVE is ridiculous at $14,000, regardless of its performance; it sells for other reasons.

The core issue here is the myth-making associated with Rob Watt’s methodologies. Because the products do not perform poorly in an audible way, it’s easier to buy into the myth and hear things that are really not there.

If you are inclined to believe that more expensive components necessarily perform better, it’s easier to try to defend performance that really is not present - your brain fills in that gap.

ASR has simply popped the myth bubble and Chord is scrambling to reassemble it to justify their price premiums.

 

[Angsty]

This is not the same thing like a super yacht or a supercar. This is just overpriced audio equipment that is basically used to take advantage of people by dealers. Telling them that they need to spend a certain amount of money on their DAC because the rest of their equipment is also expensive.

You don't show these things off to other people usually because the reality is that no one cares. This is especially true in this Hobby today. Where most people listen to Bluetooth headphones and don't really care about your Hi-Fi stuff at all

Depends on your friend group. Some people spend millions on art that is only seen by people entering their homes. Can’t have a $500K artwork in the same room with a Topping audio stack, can we?

 

[Jimster480]

Depends on your friend group. Some people spend millions on art that is only seen by people entering their homes. Can’t have a $500K artwork in the same room with a Topping audio stack, can we?

Of course we could. I also have some art in my home and there are a couple pieces that I spent some more money on then I have spent on my audio stack. It's just about something you need that you really like. I think I only have one piece that actually is more money than my audio stack but I do have a few pieces of art which are $100 or more as well as a few woodworked bowls that are 500 bucks. But it's an artisan craft so kind of not the same thing.

Most people who spend crazy money on Art though... nobody else even knows how much it costs. Which is why I never understood crazy expensive art. I can definitely understand paying the cost that it takes for a artist to make something amazing. There are a couple things that I have seen which cost as much as $10,000 that I can understand why it cost that much because it takes a crazy amount of time to create such a piece. Beyond that I think it's just nonsense.

I mostly by prints for sub $100 when I can lol... I went to Kinkos and made some nice wall art and canvas for around $200 from pictures from the internet as well as one I made myself... After seeing something in a random art show for sale for $50 (and it was a picture of space).
Anyway this is a little off topic but I do understand what you're saying and some people just like to waste money to waste it

 

[mansr]

Which is why I never understood crazy expensive art.

A lot of it is money laundering, supposedly.

 

[DonR]

A lot of it is money laundering, supposedly.

Genuine art has scarcity value. There is and only ever will be one Mona Lisa.

 

[DSJR]

The thing is that the head fi forum (and sbaf if that crap is still around) are big group think projects where there are tons of people who are totally blinded and give everyone who is starting off the absolute worst advice. Thankfully I think for myself entirely and this stuff did not work on me.

Those other places accuse us of group think too, but they don't look in th emirror to see how blinkered they are as they accuse us of being. The really good thing is that 'we' have some first class engineers (recording and design) posting here including genuine industry legends (you know who you are if you read this and my eternal thanks for your educative and non-patronising posts you've provided over the years).

 

[Jimster480]

A lot of it is money laundering, supposedly.

This is what I always imagined when I look at some painting especially by a totally unknown artist and they want over $100,000 for it. My wife and I have been to many art shows and been absolutely flabbergasted at the prices some stuff is going for.

Those other places accuse us of group think too, but they don't look in th emirror to see how blinkered they are as they accuse us of being. The really good thing is that 'we' have some first class engineers (recording and design) posting here including genuine industry legends (you know who you are if you read this and my eternal thanks for your educative and non-patronising posts you've provided over the years).

Yes I was actually just speaking to one of my friends this morning about audio equipment and he actually researched his speakers on this forum for his setup. He is not a member here but he was very impressed by all of the graphs and emeres very technical explanation of the speaker performance. He himself is an engineer and appreciates the engineering lingo.

He said that he knows lots of people sell snake oil.

Genuine art has scarcity value. There is and only ever will be one Mona Lisa.

The question is how do you know if you go to buy the Mona Lisa that it is actually the original? Because there are many Mona Lisa coffees and unless you we're there to see it painted it is very hard to know that it is actually the original. So you have to trust people in the auction house and everywhere else to not deceive you and telling you that you are indeed buying the genuine thing.
I know that some art does have scarcity value though as I mentioned some $10,000 paintings in my previous post. There are certain one-off paintings which are really masterpieces that took many months or sometimes even more than one year to paint or other sculptures and such which took sometimes years to create. I can understand those artists getting paid for their Mastercraft

 

[DonR]

The question is how do you know if you go to buy the Mona Lisa that it is actually the original? Because there are many Mona Lisa coffees and unless you we're there to see it painted it is very hard to know that it is actually the original. So you have to trust people in the auction house and everywhere else to not deceive you and telling you that you are indeed buying the genuine thing.
I know that some art does have scarcity value though as I mentioned some $10,000 paintings in my previous post. There are certain one-off paintings which are really masterpieces that took many months or sometimes even more than one year to paint or other sculptures and such which took sometimes years to create. I can understand those artists getting paid for their Mastercraft

Hopefully, the dealer has done his due diligence and checked for provenance but even an expert can be fooled.

 

[Jimster480]

Hopefully, the dealer has done his due diligence and checked for provenance but even an expert can be fooled.

I agree