Carver Raven 350 Review (Tube Amp)

[Blumlein 88]

1) Just to be clear, I was referring mostly to the D-150. The amplifier in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...50-review-tube-amp.36601/page-28#post-1773530 looks to me like a D-150 that's done a faceplant.

View attachment 326023

2) I am sure it's just coincidence but just this evening I received an email touting the brand-new "RAM 285" from the Bob Carver Corp.

Bob Carver Reference Amplifier Model - RAM 285 | BobCarverCorp.com

RETAIL PRICE - $ 4995.00 Specifications-KT-120 tubes as supplied:Rated Power: Both channels driven. 85 watts per channel both channels driven 20Hz to 20KHz w/n 1db. .5% THD+N 1KHz. 4/8 ohms. Power bandwidth:11 Hz to 35KHz Power at clipping: 105WPC both channels driven less than 1%THD+N...

www.bobcarvercorp.com

I wanted to make sure all y'all were aware of this significant new product so that you could get your orders in!

Hey specs claim right at a Sinad of 50 db with only 1.7 ohms output impedance. Someone please send one to Amir. Has a 3 prong power cord, but don't know how things are connected inside.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Assertion is the key word there. This is... unlikely to be true.

Evidence-based facts are superior and perhaps you could consider using those instead?

Thanks for your advice. Of course, evidence to back my assertion would be preferable. Could we create a poll? It’s why I asked whether there had been a research done already to establish preferences (and the reason for any preferences) between amplifiers with levels of distortion and noise considered to be audible.

 

[SIY]

Could we create a poll?

Data are better than polls.

The "pleasant distortion from tubes" thing has become a trope. No, there is zero evidence that it has any truth-value.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Data are better than polls.

The "pleasant distortion from tubes" thing has become a trope. No, there is zero evidence that it has any truth-value.

Agree. So there are no studies that look at amplifier preference where tube amps are compared to SS?

There are countless claims (source: quick google search) that even-order harmonic distortion is pleasing to the ear. But what you’re saying is that there is no evidence to back up those claims?

Very interesting. Something is going on because otherwise tubes and vinyl wouldn’t have such a following by people that care about sound. Presumably it’s cognitive bias and confirmation bias assisted by sighted listening?

 

[DSJR]

1) Just to be clear, I was referring mostly to the D-150. The amplifier in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...50-review-tube-amp.36601/page-28#post-1773530 looks to me like a D-150 that's done a faceplant.

View attachment 326023

2) I am sure it's just coincidence but just this evening I received an email touting the brand-new "RAM 285" from the Bob Carver Corp.

Bob Carver Reference Amplifier Model - RAM 285 | BobCarverCorp.com

RETAIL PRICE - $ 4995.00 Specifications-KT-120 tubes as supplied:Rated Power: Both channels driven. 85 watts per channel both channels driven 20Hz to 20KHz w/n 1db. .5% THD+N 1KHz. 4/8 ohms. Power bandwidth:11 Hz to 35KHz Power at clipping: 105WPC both channels driven less than 1%THD+N...

www.bobcarvercorp.com

I wanted to make sure all y'all were aware of this significant new product so that you could get your orders in!

My D-150 was one of the early ones which had DC blocking on the input (see Ken Rockwell review) and came as standard with no front panel, so as per out dem one when I started in 1974, was sat as mine above. The panel was an 'extra' and I baulked at the price a recent one (well, a year or two back) went for. The 150A went to DC I recall, had the front panel with accessible gain and power controls on the front, IOC lights were added along with the 'satin' stylee, easy bridging switch too I believe and then the thing was inverted and a restyle into the mk2 version. I believe the basics are shared with mine though. By the time of the mk2 version, domestic interest had moved elsewhere.

Not sure we ever saw carver here and McIntosh moved distributors a few times as interest wasn't there really...

 

[DSJR]

Very interesting. Something is going on because otherwise tubes and vinyl wouldn’t have such a following by people that care about sound. Presumably it’s cognitive bias and confirmation bias assisted by sighted listening?

Even in the late 70's when the first stirrings of the first valve renaissance, it was said that we could tolerate 2% even order distortion but only a tiny fraction of that in higher order artefacts.

You know, I honestly think now that 'audiophiles' rarely seem to attend live unamplified performances so have absolutely no idea at all what instruments really sound like (I accept that recording, mixing and 'producing' these live instruments dilutes it all) and only judge what sounds *they like,* totally disregarding the equalisation offects most 'audiophile' valve/tube amps have on their speakers (often a nice boost in the lower kHz crossover region where the impedance peaks up and which brings out 'deeeeeeetail' to their often old and tired ears as the valve/tube amp tracks it... (Why the these days I suspect the 1.5khz peaky LS3/5A is liked by such oldies)

 

[Matt_Holland]

Even in the late 70's when the first stirrings of the first valve renaissance, it was said that we could tolerate 2% even order distortion but only a tiny fraction of that in higher order artefacts.

You know, I honestly think now that 'audiophiles' rarely seem to attend live unamplified performances so have absolutely no idea at all what instruments really sound like (I accept that recording, mixing and 'producing' these live instruments dilutes it all) and only judge what sounds *they like,* totally disregarding the equalisation offects most 'audiophile' valve/tube amps have on their speakers (often a nice boost in the lower kHz crossover region where the impedance peaks up and which brings out 'deeeeeeetail' to their often old and tired ears as the valve/tube amp tracks it... (Why the these days I suspect the 1.5khz peaky LS3/5A is liked by such oldies)

Some great points there.
Live music, even un-amplified, can often be uncomfortable and certainly lacks so called “warmth”.
I’ve often enjoyed recorded music played through very loud PA systems because it brings some of that raw power and dynamics that most hifi completely misses.

 

[Purité Audio]

Even in the late 70's when the first stirrings of the first valve renaissance, it was said that we could tolerate 2% even order distortion but only a tiny fraction of that in higher order artefacts.

You know, I honestly think now that 'audiophiles' rarely seem to attend live unamplified performances so have absolutely no idea at all what instruments really sound like (I accept that recording, mixing and 'producing' these live instruments dilutes it all) and only judge what sounds *they like,* totally disregarding the equalisation offects most 'audiophile' valve/tube amps have on their speakers (often a nice boost in the lower kHz crossover region where the impedance peaks up and which brings out 'deeeeeeetail' to their often old and tired ears as the valve/tube amp tracks it... (Why the these days I suspect the 1.5khz peaky LS3/5A is liked by such oldies)

Probably best to keep ‘live’ and ‘reproduction ‘ quite separate, the only artefact we have is the record/file all we can do is reproduce that as accurately as possible.
Keith

 

[fpitas]

A buddy of mine owned that early version 700-watt amp the Flame (Phase) Linear 700. It failed a couple of times, putting one or the other 100V rail voltage across the speakers. He got it repaired one last time and sold it. My understanding is that the newer version of it was much more reliable. I think the original used TV horizontal oscillator transistors in a quasi-complementary output stage configuration. Yer powah, it had it! It could throw da boat right over da hedge, no problem. Then the sprinklers would come on--no more boat in the air.

Yeah, you didn't exactly have a broad array of choices in output devices back then. You made do with what you could get. And some older amps didn't have the blocking inductor and Zobel network at the speaker output that everybody tosses in now by habit, so the output transistors would sometimes violently oscillate and destroy themselves mysteriously. Fun times.

 

[SIY]

So there are no studies that look at amplifier preference where tube amps are compared to SS?

Studies? No. Lots of comparisons out there where they can't be distinguished once frequency response is accounted for. So if they can't be distinguished, no-one is going to bother studying preference.

There are countless claims (source: quick google search) that even-order harmonic distortion is pleasing to the ear. But what you’re saying is that there is no evidence to back up those claims?

I've been asking for evidence from lots of people who assert this, especially people peddling their electronics as something special, and to date, nope, nothing. And the comparisons are very easy to do with modern software like @pkane 's which allow tuning of the harmonics. The dirty secret is that humans are VERY sensitive to level, frequency response, and localization, but not very sensitive to distortion.

 

[Sokel]

The dirty secret is that humans are VERY sensitive to level, frequency response, and localization, but not very sensitive to distortion.

Intuitively it makes sense.
If our auditory system is made for danger amongst others it must have the ability to ignore and cut through to only what matters.
Noise is an obstacle to this,distortion is not.

 

[fpitas]

the ability to ignore and cut through to only what matters

Yeah, I can't think of too many situations where discerning 0.05% distortion would save my life

 

[mhardy6647]

Hey specs claim right at a Sinad of 50 db with only 1.7 ohms output impedance. Someone please send one to Amir. Has a 3 prong power cord, but don't know how things are connected inside.

Pretty sure the one here has a two-prong plug. I'll look anon.
I mean, I could pack it up and ship it west - - mine's 'as found' though so probably not quite up to snuff even by early/mid-70s standards. It does work, though* and sounded perfectly OK when last assessed.
I don't know if it blocks DC at the inputs or not. I do have the original manuals for those two hombres, as it happens -- the Crown manuals of that era are quite entertaining to read (BTW).

__________________
* I don't think it is possible to kill Crown products of that era. Maybe a silver stake through the P/S would do it -- or something involving a crucifix.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Yeah, I can't think of too many situations where discerning 0.05% distortion would save my life

Yeah, I can't think of too many situations where discerning 0.05% distortion would save my life

I always find alarms more alarming when they are heavily distorted. Not sure that would save my life unless it was a fire alarm.

 

[fpitas]

I always find alarms more alarming when they are heavily distorted. Not sure that would save my life unless it was a fire alarm.

I'm not sure I've heard a heavily distorted alarm. It does seem like it would be even more annoying.

 

[mhardy6647]

Agree. So there are no studies that look at amplifier preference where tube amps are compared to SS?

Ironically -- though they're not necessarily the best test data extant, the most-quoted "test" to date is probably still the Carver amplifier challenge.

Carver Challenge | BobCarverCorp.com

www.bobcarvercorp.com

The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com

Thanks for posting this 1985 article to your website. I bought a Carver m1.0t amp in 1986 (without ever having seen a copy of Stereophile) and it has served me well ever since, with one repair and adjustment to factory specs (total repair cost was $200 in 2006) needed in all of that time. It's...

www.stereophile.com

PS I've got to give Stereophile credit for Footnote 2 in the above reference, referring to Carver's many, whimsically-monikered "innovations" of that bygone era:

Footnote 2: Brilliant innovations some of them may be, but their names are notable more for catchiness in the marketplace than for descriptiveness of engineering innovation.—Larry Archibald

I always find alarms more alarming when they are heavily distorted. Not sure that would save my life unless it was a fire alarm.

Chrysler Air-Raid Siren - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's got a horn-loaded Hemi. I mean, does it get any more American?

 

[fpitas]

Ironically -- though it's not necessarily the best test data extant, the most-quoted "test" to date is probably still the Carver amplifier challenge.

Carver Challenge | BobCarverCorp.com

www.bobcarvercorp.com

The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com

Thanks for posting this 1985 article to your website. I bought a Carver m1.0t amp in 1986 (without ever having seen a copy of Stereophile) and it has served me well ever since, with one repair and adjustment to factory specs (total repair cost was $200 in 2006) needed in all of that time. It's...

www.stereophile.com

PS I've got to give Stereophile credit for Footnote 2 in the above reference, referring to Carver's many, whimsically-monikered "innovations" of that bygone era:

Bob Carver may have single-handedly debunked any number of theories about sound quality by using physics, blind and double-blind testing and unbiased measurements (such as "gold-plated speaker wires sound better than copper wires", etc.).

Which audiophiles and the industry promptly ignored.

 

[fpitas]

Ironically -- though they're not necessarily the best test data extant, the most-quoted "test" to date is probably still the Carver amplifier challenge.

Carver Challenge | BobCarverCorp.com

www.bobcarvercorp.com

The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com

Thanks for posting this 1985 article to your website. I bought a Carver m1.0t amp in 1986 (without ever having seen a copy of Stereophile) and it has served me well ever since, with one repair and adjustment to factory specs (total repair cost was $200 in 2006) needed in all of that time. It's...

www.stereophile.com

PS I've got to give Stereophile credit for Footnote 2 in the above reference, referring to Carver's many, whimsically-monikered "innovations" of that bygone era:

Chrysler Air-Raid Siren - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's got a horn-loaded Hemi. I mean, does it get any more American?

its power plant contained a newly designed Firepower Hemi V8 engine with a displacement of 331 cubic inches (5.42 L) and producing 180 horsepower (130 kW).[1]

It's still surprising how little horsepower old V8s had.

 

[mhardy6647]

Bob Carver may have single-handedly debunked any number of theories about sound quality by using physics, blind and double-blind testing and unbiased measurements (such as "gold-plated speaker wires sound better than copper wires", etc.).

Which audiophiles and the industry promptly ignored.

The Carver Challenge has had a long and chameleonic existence influence on the periphery of audiophilicity, I'd opine.
The fact that Carver makes (or, at the least, allowed his name to be associated) with modern vacuum tube amplifiers that reflect at least sometimes dubious engineering prowess is either ironic, performance art (a la Schiit's ouevre ), or really very sad.

its power plant contained a newly designed Firepower Hemi V8 engine with a displacement of 331 cubic inches (5.42 L) and producing 180 horsepower (130 kW).[1]

It's still surprising how little horsepower old V8s had.

Danged Class A power plants.

 

[fpitas]

The fact that Carver makes (or, at the least, allowed his name to be associated) with modern vacuum tube amplifiers that reflect at least sometimes dubious engineering prowess is either ironic, performance art (a la Schiit's ouevre ), or really very sad.

He may not really care anymore, but enjoys the money. They are disappointing amps, to say the least.