Canton came out this year with nice looking new Reference line. From the looks, we can notice there are lot of improvements on the cabin. Now even the front baffle is rounded like bowers and Wilkins and even the top and bottom. Seems like audio and stereoplay already have measurements of them. And they look promising with their all new BCT(Black Ceramic Tungsten) Membranes.
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Canton Reference 2023 - is it now Reference grade?
- Thread starter dogmamann
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Measurements, preferably including off-axis? You knew that request was coming.
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I saw the measurements in stereoplay magazine. @thewas and @BrokenEnglishGuy now the distortion on the graph is gone. I also, read the magazines review and they have mentioned they changed the composition of the ceramic tungsten membrane with some “undisclosed” material which comes from the automotive industry. It seems like they listened to critics here!
BrokenEnglishGuy
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Can you just post the graphs from stereoplay?
Thanks stereoplay!
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The bass at -6db is 29Hz which is quite nice. But overall on paper this reminds me of the Quadral aurum 8r. But again this one has a round cabin which means the radiation to the room in upper frequencies must be really wide.
totti1965
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Nope! At least not for music lovers.
This is the deepL translation from a private message I send to Karl-Heinz Fink last week:
Your comment on the bass alignment - I'm right there with you! The advantage with flat alignments is yes that very very low down is still at least a bit of playback.
"My" deepest bass track:
Beatles Anthology 2 Disc 1 Track 7 "Yesterday" with guitar solo and Paul's voice.
The track contains an incredible low-frequency rumble from the mic stand that happens over and over again (after maybe 12 seconds, 30 seconds of a minute, etc.).
I had once heard the CD at an acquaintance's house with a big transmission line.
I kept asking him: there are people living above you. Did you rent the second floor?
It took several months (!!!) until I realized that what I interpreted as furniture moving on the second floor (he didn't even hear the rumbling!) was nothing more than a part of the recording. Is it perhaps only 5 to 10 Hz?
I would like to be able to hear that part of the recording as well. That's why I think you do it totally right with the bass and the gentle farewell of the same.
About 15 years ago, at a HiFi show, I drove a Canton sales person to despair when I had the piece played and persistently asked why the new, very large and expensive Canton speaker had "No" playback. I used the words "no playback" and played quite dumb....
It was simply from the rumble and rumble nix to hear. Rumble that can be just guessed with large two-way speakers at higher volumes, but still(!) guessed. With Canton: Nix, niente, Null.....
It is this still to be guessed deepest bass, which gives one also with some live jazz records (e.g. certain editions of Bill Evans "Live at the Village Venguard" - other editions and at the moment unfortunately also the Tidal versions do not contain this deepest bass rumble) this unbelievable feeling of being there - that tears of joy can come.
The Canton box had (because of the then still big as DC Displacement Control marketed high pass) unfortunately NO playback in this range below 30 Hz, since it was only bred for party strength......
Of course, the Canton flies around my ears later than other boxes, if I constantly turn the amplifier to 12 o'clock, but is that still music? Does Mr. Göbel have ears???
And this is the German original:
Ihre Anmerkung zur Bassabstimmung - da bin ich voll bei Ihnen! Der Vorteil bei flachen Alignements ist ja, dass ganz ganz ganz tief unten immer noch zumindest ein bisschen Wiedergabe ist.
„Mein“ Tiefstbass Track:
Beatles Anthology 2 Disc 1 Track 7 „Yesterday“ mit Gittare Solo und Pauls Stimme.
Der Track enthält ein unglaubliches, tiefstfrequentes Rumpeln des Mikrofonständers, das immer und immer wieder vorkommt (nach vielleicht 12 Sekunden, 30 Sekunden einer Minute usw.)
Ich hatte die CD mal bei einem Bekannten mit einer großen Transmissionline gehört.
Ich fragte ihn ständig: da sind ja doch noch Leute die über Dir wohnen. Hast Du die erste Etage vermietet?
Es dauerte mehrere Monate (!!!) bis mir klar wurde, dass das was ich bei ihm als Möbelrücken in der ersten Etage interpretierte (er hörte das Poltern und Rumpeln übrigens gar nicht!) nichts weiter als ein Teil der Aufnahme war. Sind es vielleicht nur 5 bis 10 Hz?
Ich möchte diesen Teil der Aufnahme auch hören können. Deshalb finde ich, sie machen das völlig richtig mit dem Bass und dem sanften verabschieden desselbigen.
Vor ca. 15 Jahren habe ich auf einer HiFi Messe einen Canton Vertriebsmenschen zur Verzweiflung gebracht, als ich das Stück spielen ließ und hartnäckig fragte, warum denn der neue, sehr große und teure Canton Lautsprecher „Keine“ Wiedergabe hätte. Ich verwendete die Worte „keine Wiedergabe“ und stellte mich ganz dumm….
Es war einfach von dem Gerumpel und Gepolter nix zu hören. Gerumpel, dass mit großen Zweiwegerichen bei höheren Lautstärken gerade mal zu erahnen, aber immerhin(!) zu erahnen ist. Bei Canton: Nix, niente, Null…..
Es ist dieser noch zu erahnende Tiefstbass, der einem auch bei einigen Live Jazzplatten (z. B. Bestimmten Ausgaben von Bill Evans „Live at the Village Venguard“ - andere Ausgaben und im Moment leider auch die Tidal Versionen enthalten dieses Tiefstbassgerumpel leider nicht mehr) dieses unglaubliche Gefühl des Dabeiseins gibt - dass einem Freudentränen kommen können.
Die Canton Box hatte (wegen des damals noch groß als DC Displacement Control vermarktetem Hochpasses) leider KEINE Wiedergabe in diesem Bereich unter 30 Hz, da sie lediglich auf Partyfestigkeit hin gezüchtet wurde……
Natürlich fliegt mir die Canton später um die Ohren als andere Boxen, wenn ich den Verstärker ständig auf 12 Uhr drehe, aber ist das noch Musik? Hat der Göbel Ohren???
Unfortunately, nothing has changed in the bass alignment of Canton speakers in the last 15 years. The new small Reference 9 is for me one of the most beautiful speakers in the world. Therefore I try again and again to find Canton good. Meanwhile: I simply do not succeed!
Thorsten
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So a loudspeaker is only "reference grade" when it is able to play subsonic content on a recording which isn't supposed to be on the recording in the first place? Sorry, no offence at all, but to me this is audiophile nonsense. With the exception of organ music and some electronic recordings there is no relevant musical content in the lowest octave. The deepest note on a electric 5 string bass guitar is about 31 Hz and as long as a speaker is able to reproduce it at full level it is full range in my book. And of course speakers can be "reference grade" without playing below 20 Hertz.
Btw: Remarkable, that KHF is able to hear 5-10 Hertz. I'm am definitely not....
BrokenEnglishGuy
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That stereoplay measurements seems to be a bit weird, and taked at 10°. (the graph below)
But the difference between lets say 1khz and 80hz is 10dB, a bit weird
I will wait for more measurements for now
But the difference between lets say 1khz and 80hz is 10dB, a bit weird
I will wait for more measurements for now
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totti1965
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I do not know exactly where the low sounds I was talking about are: perhaps it is more 16 - 20 Hz and not 5-10 Hz but they are part of these legendary recordings. The Canton has about 55 dB at 20 Hz when the other frequencies have 87 dB. 55 dB in that range is not enough for real live feeling, maybe 65 dB are! May these deep sounds are intentional recorded or not. They are on the recording. And KHF didn‘t say that he can hear 5-10 Hz. He just mentioned that he from his tast prefer Bass alignment which are more flat than those of other brands. I think this Bass Information is often part of the feeling of the room - even before the musicians began to play. E.g. good recordings like „The spirit of eden“ (Talk Talk) or „Mark Hollis“ (Mark Hollis) are much more enyojable when this „Deep Bass Room information“ is transmitted by the speaker, even in the quieter moments…… it is not only the „musical content“ I want to hear, but the whole event. I want to feel the complete occurrence of that what was recorded with all my senses. No need for 100 dB - but 55 dB is simply not enough for me.
Just my 2c
BrokenEnglishGuy
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To be fair, the quality at 16hz-20hz, is no-sense.
Only matters 20hz-20khz, if you want below 20hz pick your best 18'' subwoofer that your money can buy.
Only matters 20hz-20khz, if you want below 20hz pick your best 18'' subwoofer that your money can buy.
Doenerkunde
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Usually their frequency response consists of anechoic measurements above 300hz, groundplane between 90 and 300hz and nearfield measurements below 90hz while their distortion measurements are entirely groundplane. So there is always some difference between them, but not nearly as much as we see here.
totti1965
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Verstehe die Messungen auch nicht. Was ist da schiefgelaufen?
BrokenEnglishGuy
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look at the dB and colors
For example, assuming the graph below was take at 10° (should be taken at on-axis, clearly is better at on-axis), the red line is more like 95dB instead of 100dB.
Pd: I used google translator
totti1965
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Look at the measuring plot of the Geithain ME 901 - same Price as Canton. Much bigger Bandwith. And it is active.look at the dB and colors
For example, assuming the graph below was take at 10° (should be taken at on-axis, clearly is better at on-axis), the red line is more like 95dB instead of 100dB.
Pd: I used google translator
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100 should be 95! Wait, that means we don’t have a 100db measurement ! That’s nicely played! If we assume the same pattern as the distortion line below, it’s going to be having the distortion somewhere around 65db - 70db for 2Khz.look at the dB and colors
For example, assuming the graph below was take at 10° (should be taken at on-axis, clearly is better at on-axis), the red line is more like 95dB instead of 100dB.
Pd: I used google translator
So we know what this means
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They measure perfectly well, but boy they don’t fit in a living room. There are lot of studio monitors like this whihc measure well if those are considered hifi. If that’s what you think is all it matters, then probably an entry level genelec or Neumann would beat the Epos es14n! But you had been saying there is more than measurements in the other thread (es14n)for good sound. But here, you don’t want to believe it. Interesting !
totti1965
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Yep, that’s the reason why I would give everything for a Spinorama / Klippel NFS plot of the Geithain ME 901 by Amir or Erin. But I think, that will stay an unfulfilled dream. I don‘t think the ME 901 would suck - even in Spinorama! I often hear music with them when I visit my friend Stephan („Nemo“ in the aktives-hoeren forum) sometimes till 3 o clock in the morning. They are the less fatiguing speakers I know. I Love this speakers - but a Klippel NFS measuring would be the final prove! Such a pity, that most of the Speakers in the database are cheap little Speakers for the working desk.
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