Can Dirac overcome the Onkyo RZ50 shortcomings? X3700H instead?

[peng]

I have spent this year really listening to the AVRs. I liked Sony the best out of Maranatz, Pioneer w/Dirac, Denon w/ audessy 32 xt, and Yamaha. Sony and Dirac calibrated my speakers the same way..literally. Dirac does not measure distance tho..its like in response time or something. Anyway, I kept the Denon 4400 based on the reviews here and it's sounds good but definitely lacks with music. I really though the RZ was going to be the good middle of the road choice but it sounds like it has the same problems as the Pioneer as 305..poor back channels, stereo and dap problems. Any advice? My wife is a lovely person but she wouldn't understand a stereo that is expensive as a car?

Very interesting, yet to me, my X4400H is as good as my separates, especially if I use it with my dacs such as the Oppo Sonica via analog in, and direct mode. I think your "lacks with music" may be due to other factors, though it is also my belief that subjective impression is a highly variable thing. It is impossible to say one is better than the other as everyone may have different impression/opinion. Every brand has its followers, that's just a fact. No wonder I always go with measurements, the more measurements the easier for me to choose.

 

[Miker 1102]

Very interesting, yet to me, my X4400H is as good as my separates, especially if I use it with my dacs such as the Oppo Sonica via analog in, and direct mode. I think your "lacks with music" may be due to other factors, though it is also my belief that subjective impression is a highly variable thing. It is impossible to say one is better than the other as everyone may have different impression/opinion. Every brand has its followers, that's just a fact. No wonder I always go with measurements, the more measurements the easier for me to choose.

I think my preference probably has more to do with the learning curve for the Audessy. I can say since I cut the frequency range to 500hz on it the sound is much,much better. I also tried to change the target curve but that's so frustrating on the app. I think my Sony attachment is due to its one scan for correction. I appreciate the comparison charts. Maybe I will break down and buy the 200 dollar windows app..

 

[Johnp]

I really though the RZ was going to be the good middle of the road choice but it sounds like it has the same problems as the Pioneer as 305..poor back channels, stereo and dap problems. Any advice? My wife is a lovely person but she wouldn't understand a stereo that is expensive as a car?

I've seen stereo problems mentioned a few times. These units engage Extended Stereo with one push of the button, which sounds truly awful. Another push of the button gives Stereo, which sounds just as it should.

 

[peng]

I think my preference probably has more to do with the learning curve for the Audessy. I can say since I cut the frequency range to 500hz on it the sound is much,much better. I also tried to change the target curve but that's so frustrating on the app. I think my Sony attachment is due to its one scan for correction. I appreciate the comparison charts. Maybe I will break down and buy the 200 dollar windows app..

I think the target curve is good for the first run only. After that if you want to bend the curve your way or just flatten things up, you can't do it intuitively, and it would be extremely difficult to get good results without using Ratbudyssey or other similar 3rd party interface with the app. You obviously know that already by the sound of it. I've found a way to do it effectively using REW to help find the necessary cuts/boosts and the frequency points. I dare say using my method, better results can be guaranteed. If you are interested you can take a look of my AH thread, but I guess if you have already moved on from Audyssey to Dirac then there is no point wasting your time.

 

[Miker 1102]

I think the target curve is good for the first run only. After that if you want to bend the curve your way or just flatten things up, you can't do it intuitively, and it would be extremely difficult to get good results without using Ratbudyssey or other similar 3rd party interface with the app. You obviously know that already by the sound of it. I've found a way to do it effectively using REW to help find the necessary cuts/boosts and the frequency points. I dare say using my method, better results can be guaranteed. If you are interested you can take a look of my AH thread, but I guess if you have already moved on from Audyssey to Dirac then there is no point wasting your time.

I will look at your threads. I appreciate the response because I am learning the most by using Audessy. I feel more confident in my understanding of where the speaker range ends and the reflection points in my room.

 

[Miker 1102]

Very interesting, yet to me, my X4400H is as good as my separates, especially if I use it with my dacs such as the Oppo Sonica via analog in, and direct mode. I think your "lacks with music" may be due to other factors, though it is also my belief that subjective impression is a highly variable thing. It is impossible to say one is better than the other as everyone may have different impression/opinion. Every brand has its followers, that's just a fact. No wonder I always go with measurements, the more measurements the easier for me to choose.

I have an Oppo. What is a Sonica ? Is that modified?

 

[peng]

I have an Oppo. What is a Sonica ? Is that modified?

It's, a dac.

Oppo Sonica USB DAC and Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the now discontinued, Oppo Sonica USB balanced DAC and network streamer. It is on kind loan from a member. When it was on sale, the Sonica costs US $799 from Oppo direct. I think the member bought it used so they are available and hence this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Doublej]

Onkyo Japan announced Bankruptcy - but the Audio/AV busines is no longer owned by Onkyo Japan, it is owned by Voxx (77%) and Sharp (23%) - both of which are in good financial health. - the Voxx/Sharp partnership owe Onkyo Japan licencing fees.. that's all.

And Sound United has been sold to a medical technology company.

 

[dlaloum]

And Sound United has been sold to a medical technology company.

Impact of which is likely to be nothing for the next year.... and after that, it is anyones guess....

At least the Voxx/Sharp ownership keeps the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer brands in the AV marketplace....

 

[amirm]

The RZ50's SINAD is good but I would like to know if Amir ran that test with the internal amps disconnected. If not, then it is really good

I did not disconnect the amps.

 

[Miker 1102]

And Sound United has been sold to a medical technology company.

I found myself looking a lot more at how manufacturers used the same sources

Impact of which is likely to be nothing for the next year.... and after that, it is anyones guess....

At least the Voxx/Sharp ownership keeps the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer brands in the AV marketplace....

Yes. I agree. I wanted to like that Pioneer lx305 but I just thought the dsp sounded not that great..after running Dirac. I may try and step up if Onkyo ever get a better supply out..I think some of the conversations lately are really optimistic becaue it's hard to find a lot of these products at all .

 

[Jimmi]

I'm late to the party but fascinating discussion

 

[anioq]

The Marantz "warm sound"

The warm sound is because they use the "Super Slow Rolloff" filter, which is basically a NOS filter. In the 70s, all DACs are NOS. Measures terribly, but damn they sound good.

I believe the RZ50 let you pick the filter! You can see the effect with an impulse test.

 

[voodooless]

The warm sound is because they use the "Super Slow Rolloff" filter,

Funny thing is that Audyssey will remove some of the slow rolloff when correcting again. At least that makes it sound more neural. It still has lots of high frequency IMD though.

 

[peng]

The warm sound is because they use the "Super Slow Rolloff" filter, which is basically a NOS filter. In the 70s, all DACs are NOS. Measures terribly, but damn they sound good.

I believe the RZ50 let you pick the filter! You can see the effect with an impulse test.

I don't think that is the reason, if it is the warm sound will only be there when using digital input playing contents with sampling rate at or below 48 kHz. For analog input direct mode and digital input/contents with higher sampling rate (think Nyquist) the effects of the slow filter will be zero in terms of frequency response as there will be no such roll off that starts at around 10 kHz as is the case with 44.1 kHz sampling rate. I believe the warm sound thing could well be imagined in most (not all) cases. Prior to using my current Denon AVR I have had two Marantz AVPs including the ex flagship AV8801 and I also have a separate pair, vintage preamp/power amp, so I am familiar with the so called Marantz sound, never felt the warm sound, vs my other gear.

 

[dlaloum]

The warm sound is because they use the "Super Slow Rolloff" filter, which is basically a NOS filter. In the 70s, all DACs are NOS. Measures terribly, but damn they sound good.

I believe the RZ50 let you pick the filter! You can see the effect with an impulse test.

70's DAC's - that was a rare breed indeed!!!

 

[dlaloum]

I don't think that is the reason, if it is the warm sound will only be there when using digital input playing contents with sampling rate at or below 48 kHz. For analog input direct mode and digital input/contents with higher sampling rate (think Nyquist) the effects of the slow filter will be zero in terms of frequency response as there will be no such roll off that starts at around 10 kHz as is the case with 44.1 kHz sampling rate. I believe the warm sound thing could well be imagined in most (not all) cases. Prior to using my current Denon AVR I have had two Marantz AVPs including the ex flagship AV8801 and I also have a separate pair, vintage preamp/power amp, so I am familiar with the so called Marantz sound, never felt the warm sound, vs my other gear.

I agree - audiophool terminology, adapted by marketing.... - with no measurable support.... but it does generate confirmation bias.

Definition: "Confirmation Bias" - similar to amplifier bias current, the more you have the sweeter and warmer the sound - never a negative!

 

[Dj7675]

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews:

Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound equal to or better? I do run an external amplifier on my main front channels, which do present a 4ohm load.

I would also consider (given the price difference) of running a 5 channel OSB amplifier (or equiv) so that the only driven channels by the RZ50 would be the Atmos height and rear surround.

I would actually throw a wrench in things and possibly to a 3rd option if you have multiple subs… RZ50/MiniDSP with MSO/ External Amps on the RZ50 for at least the LCR…

 

[Danaxus]

Isn't the new Cinema series from Marantz supposed to be nice and flat? They come with Audyssey, and I believe the higher end models have (or will have), Dirac. Might be a good alternative to the RZ50.

 

[Rottmannash]

Way more expensive I believe vs the RZ50.