Can Dirac overcome the Onkyo RZ50 shortcomings? X3700H instead?

[AlexanderM]

If I was going to buy the RZ50 I would not use 4 Ohm speakers. Is that not an easy fix??

 

[Rottmannash]

I watch the AVS thread on the RZ50 (and participate as I own one) and no one, AFAIK has documented any issues powering 4 ohm speakers. Doesn't mean there haven't been instances, just that on one of that forum has mentioned it.

 

[Dj7675]

If I was going to buy the RZ50 I would not use 4 Ohm speakers. Is that not an easy fix??

The problem with this is many speaker manufacturers claim they are 8ohm, but actual measurements often times show a much different picture that require better amplification and/or higher current than some AVR’s can do. Take for example the Revel C208 manufacturer specs it at 8ohm nominal impedance implying an easy to drive speaker. However when it is actually measured, it shows a better amp should be used than one that isn’t limited to 8ohm speakers. Will it for sure be an issue with this receiver? I don’t think anyone could say for sure without knowing how loud they listen, seating distance etc. Could it be an issue? I would say yes, it could. And to compound matters the receiver has no error state messages if it goes into its protection mode and if I recall correctly it needs unplugged to get it out of the protection mode. I think it is a flaw in their design to not show it has been tripped into protection mode but this can be overcome with some external amps if someone wants some peace of mind (I would).

 

[Rottmannash]

If one is using the PC app one can see the state of the AVR, but not sure if protection mode is something shown.Of course who sits around with their laptop on, watching the status...

 

[AlexanderM]

Or, make sure you use speakers with good sensitivity so they aren't difficult to drive?? I know I always look at the sensitivity.

 

[Dj7675]

Or, make sure you use speakers with good sensitivity so they aren't difficult to drive?? I know I always look at the sensitivity.

Yes and No… Sensitivity is often way off as well and sometimes even high efficiency speakers can be hard to drive. Let’s look as another example from Klipsch… the R600M. Klipsch specs it at a sensitivity of 96dB and 8ohm. The assumption would be very easy to drive and not a problem. But when you look closer actual facts are much different..

-Sensitivity is actually 85 instead of 96
-Impedance is 3.2 instead of 8
So what looks like an easy to drive speaker with manufacturer specs, actually isn’t when you look at the measurement data.

 

[AlexanderM]

Yes and No… Sensitivity is often way off as well and sometimes even high efficiency speakers can be hard to drive. Let’s look as another example from Klipsch… the R600M. Klipsch specs it at a sensitivity of 96dB and 8ohm. The assumption would be very easy to drive and not a problem. But when you look closer actual facts are much different..

-Sensitivity is actually 85 instead of 96
-Impedance is 3.2 instead of 8
So what looks like an easy to drive speaker with manufacturer specs, actually isn’t when you look at the measurement data.

Very good to know! Thank you!

 

[NirreFirre]

They are launching this spring I think. Some EU prices have already been announced by local distributors.

Yep, at least it seems Sweden and Finland gets some in a week or two (the European, Africa and ME distribution deal was struck in July):

Förstärkare - Brett sortiment & noga utvalt från Hembiobutiken

Receiver - Köp hifi-förstärkare och spelare i ett - Power.se

www.power.se

Onkyo

Onkyo on maailman suurimpia viihde-elektroniikan valmistajia. Tilaa helposti Audiokaupasta!

www.audiokauppa.fi

Ping @voodooless

 

[dlaloum]

If I was going to buy the RZ50 I would not use 4 Ohm speakers. Is that not an easy fix??

Or if you already own 4 ohm speakers (as I do), you run them with an external amp, which leave the RZ50 with more power to run the surrounds and heights

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Very interesting, yet to me, my X4400H is as good as my separates, especially if I use it with my dacs such as the Oppo Sonica via analog in, and direct mode. I think your "lacks with music" may be due to other factors, though it is also my belief that subjective impression is a highly variable thing. It is impossible to say one is better than the other as everyone may have different impression/opinion. Every brand has its followers, that's just a fact. No wonder I always go with measurements, the more measurements the easier for me to choose.

Are you sure that in direct mode it doesn't process the signal through the internal DAC?
Because I ask about this at Denon/Marantz support about the X3800H and AV 7706 and they reply to me that in preamplifier mode they elaborate the signal from the internal dac, so I was thinking that also the direct or pure direct did in this way

 

[Rottmannash]

Are you sure that in direct mode it doesn't process the signal through the internal DAC?
Because I ask about this at Denon/Marantz support about the X3800H and AV 7706 and they reply to me that in preamplifier mode they elaborate the signal from the internal dac, so I was thinking that also the direct or pure direct did in this way

I assume he means he uses the output of the Oppo, which uses its own DAC then into an analog input on the AVR which will then bypass the internal DAC circuitry. In Pure Direct there will be no processing of the signal.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

I'm reporting an email from the Denon/Marantz support. I leave it in Italian, there are plenty of translator.

Me:
Buongiorno, chiedo scusa se riprendo questa richiesta/domanda, ma:
Se si utilizza la modalità Direct o Pure Direct il segnale, che potrebbe arrivare da un ingresso digitale o dall'ingresso analogico, viene elaborato dal dac del sintoamplificatore?

Cordiali Saluti

Support:
Buona sera.
Le confermo che il segnale audio viene sempre gestito attraverso le tecnologie digitali a bordo del prodotto (DAC e DSP).

Distinti saluti.
Davide

 

[ArturoKiwi]

This is a awful news.
We could use avr in preamp mode, analog input, direct mode, but the avr will use the internal dac.
Is there any possibility to bypass this? Or is a problem of Denon and Marantz only?

 

[dlaloum]

If you check the amplifier measurements in amirm's X3800 review, there is this:

The Pure mode response indicates either that it is pure analogue, or that it is digitised at a very odd rate (something like 240kHz)

The green lines indicate that under the Auto setting it is digitised at 96kHz

Clearly if you are in "Pure" mode - it stays analogue all the way through

 

[ArturoKiwi]

I don't know what to say.
I hope that in pure mode the Amps don't use the internal dac, because so I could use mine external one to listen music

 

[techsamurai]

I'm confused how is the SINAD of the RZ50 bad?

Is the clipping resolved and/or does it affect anything in movie playback? I'm pretty sure if it drops to 35watts in an action movie, it'd be apparent.

 

[Flak]

I'm confused how is the SINAD of the RZ50 bad?

Is the clipping resolved and/or does it affect anything in movie playback? I'm pretty sure if it drops to 35watts in an action movie, it'd be apparent.

My opinion here:

Can Dirac overcome the Onkyo RZ50 shortcomings? X3700H instead?

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews: Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[techsamurai]

My opinion here:

Can Dirac overcome the Onkyo RZ50 shortcomings? X3700H instead?

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews: Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I agree but that doesn't mean when someone's using speakers that drop to 2.8 ohms at 100hz, it won't clip. I don't want to be the one testing it for Onkyo!

Doesn't the manufacturer run these benchmarks on their units? They need to go buy some hard-to-drive speakers and play the THX demos over and over at THX levels and post the video on youtube Onkyo should have multi-channel sound down to a science by now.