Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[JP]

Why choose to post a statement about "digital issues" on a forum that emphasizes measurements, where the existence of these supposed digital issues are proven not exist?

There's likely corner, edge, or contrived cases where they do exist. We do have to get past 'because jitter' to have a chance at a reasonable conversation, though.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Perhaps, but I don't think it's just that.

Well if you are really interested, try this:

Rip/digitize your favorite vinyl. (to make sure you absolutely get the same master)
Set the systems up next to each other and level match within <0.1dB.

Now put on a blindfold and let someone else switch the inputs while the piece is playing. The track will jump around a bit because synching a LP and a digital source is probably rocket science but it should be close enough to compare the sonic signatures in a more fair environment.

Unless you do this, any argument is pretty moot because there are a host of factors playing into your perception, from seeing the pleasing spinning disk, there being subtle differences in the masters, down to simple volume differences between the setups.

 

[JP]

Don’t forget to record at the same volume you would listen.

 

[killdozzer]

No recording sounds like the live shows for many of the genres of music I listen to. The two are not even the same thing. The live performances have a basis in the recording, but they depart in hugely significant ways. The Pixies, Radiohead, The Cure, Guerilla Toss, The Melvins, Black Sabbath, fuck even the London Philharmonic, don’t sound like they do on a re cording. I listen in a sound treated room on pretty transparent gear, but the only thing that has ever come close to feeling like I am “there” is singer/songwriter one person on an acoustic guitar. My e a quartet recording or two. Solo instruments (ie the Trombone in Alice Donut’s cover of War Pigs) come closest, but honestly they don’t sound like they are really live (ie when I listened to the Young Black Men’s Blues Band On Frenchman Street. Live is just a different thing for most music. Wall of sound standing in a crowd is my most frequent experience. Neither digital nor vinyl come close.

Not directed at you:

One thing I have noticed about ASR in the few months I have been here is that many posters seem to assume the types of music that might be at play, the goals for listening to music, the desired shape of the experience of listening based on their own patterns.

Secondly, that people here (like in all specialist forums) argue vehemently about minute differences and tend to exaggerate those differences. In this thread it has been stated that vinyl sounds like crap. Which simply isn’t true. It is marginally degraded compared to a good master presented digitally, but the difference isn’t huge. Beyond contamination and damage to the media, the difference between vinyl and digital is pretty small. Played at 90 DBL, my wife can’t tell between digital and vinyl recordings from the same master. Sometimes I can’t tell unless I actively listen for the flaws instead of to the music. And my system isn’t great in terms of vinyl (It’s in my sig.)

I have no idea why anyone else is picking up vinyl right now, but thinking it has anything to do with sound quality when those differences are not apparent to almost all listeners who are not critically listening to their equipment, is probably misguided.

You took your time, but I hate to tell you you completely missed my point. We all know the live/recorded subject, it's old. But it gains new life here for many record-lovers insist on life-like and the sound signature makes it so distinctive and recognizably not natural (far less than digital). So my question is if sound sig. makes it life-like, than life must be less like life for them bc there's no records' sound sig.

I don't really agree the difference is not big. Perhaps if you spend 20 folds on tt side. I never heard record that came close to digital. And these tests you can perform easily by input selector.

I don't even trust ALL the ppl who say they prefer the sound of records. I think a good portion are just full of it. Sadly, I witnessed a number of them picking digital over records in blind test being absolutely convinced that they picked a record bc what sounds better = record. When you show them, they accuse you of cheating. They seem to be biased that whatever sounds better must be a record cause that's what they've been told. So they hear a diff and they pick what's better, but they just wrongly expect it to be vinyl. They get angry when faced with results.

 

[killdozzer]

Sure. I do think those are plural for this topic.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

 

[JP]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I think it's multiple trends and fads that compromise the overall 'movement'.

 

[MattHooper]

No. Quite wrong again. You explained nothing but yourself just as in most threads. Not only are you committing a "pars pro toto" logical fallacy, but you took yourself as "pars". You're just painting a pretty picture about yourself via the topic at hand which is probably the reason why it bothers you that the real reasons are far more trivial. You're just grooming/stroking your own ego. And how's that for facile, right? Nothing easier for smug people than taking themselves as a measure to measure the world and everyone else and say "well, I am the world".

And if you could stop even for a second you'd noticed that you haven't even brushed against the topic. Also, if you could stop for a second, you wouldn't miss such simple, logical counter-arguments like; you are a part of the constant and not rising numbers. People like you who held that their purchase choices and consumer rituals made them better than the rest, never even left records. So, again, you yourself are not a resurgence and no, young kids today are not mimicking you. Their reasons are not your reasons. So you should be able to realize it's something else. But ego can be a powerful type of blindness.

What a bizarre response.

Again: I have NOT been listening to vinyl consistantly - I went all digital since the 80's until just a few years ago. So in fact I AM part of the resurgence of people getting back in to vinyl. (Not that it even matters for a second given what I've written). And..yeesh...your lame pop psychologizing about "ego grooming" and "pretty pictures about yourself."

If we are to indulge in psychologizing we might consider what it does for a certain person's ego to continually disparage other folk's interests in the most trivial, shallow way possible. Isn't that a classic case of "making yourself feel superior by trivializing the interests and motivations of others?" I leave it to the onlookers to asses that ;-)

In any case, you've entirely ignored that I wasn't simply assuming other people had motivations like mine - I have OBSERVED these reasons being offered by a great number of others. I explained that the very types of reasons I gave were found in countless articles interviewing people getting in to vinyl, and you can see it in discussions on vinyl in audiophile forums, music lover forums and vinyl forums like reddit.

I said people buy vinyl for a wide range of reasons, and yes there ARE elements for some people of being 'hip' or trendy, but if when you actually ASK what people enjoy about vinyl you will typically find the themes repeated in my original post:

Digital music seems easy and ubiquitous, making tangible vinyl feel more "special" for numerous reasons (e.g. it's physicality, hunting for a vinyl album you want, etc). People find the tangible, physical nature of vinyl satisfying both in terms of collecting and owning the music and how it seems to positively affect the act of playing and listening to music. The deliberation required in the process often aids their focus in a world with constantly available digital music. Turntables are cool. They prefer the sound of vinyl. Buying vinyl helps the artist more (more money to the artist vs streaming). It's a break from the digital world and our constant use of computers and screens.

Not everyone shares all those reasons at once, but ALL of these themes are CONSTANTLY repeated when people are discussing why they buy vinyl on-line, and in countless news articles on why people are getting back in to vinyl.

Examples:

https://www.tunecore.com/blog/2016/04/why-vinyl-is-popular-again.html

Musician Ari Herstand said, “This music is beautifully and intentionally detached from my phone…When we stare at our screens for the majority of our days, it’s nice to look at art that doesn’t glow and isn’t the size of my hand.”

Another Spin for Vinyl (Published 2008)

With a bump in sales, the LP is reliving a little of its glory days.

www.nytimes.com

“I have a ton of music on iTunes,” Mr. Karoly said, “but with that music I get A.D.D. really quick. With my LPs, it’s like reading a book as opposed to clicking through articles on Yahoo.”

“When you put on a record,” he added, “it’s an event.”

-----

“The process of taking the record off the shelf, pulling it out of the sleeve, putting the needle on the record, makes for a much more intense and personal connection with the music because it’s more effort,” said R. J. Crowder-Schaefer, 21, a senior at New York University who said he became a serious vinyl disciple a few years ago.



Examples from reddit music discussion forum:

Why do you buy vinyl?​

https://www.reddit.com/r/LetsTalkMusic/comments/7t0lyq
"It's something tangible, something I can read and flip over in my hands as I lie back on the sofa and listen. It's a ritual, and rituals are important to me because I am a physical being. I feel more connected to the music if I can interact with it in this way. And when one side finishes, I have to get up, take the needle off, flip the record, and carefully put the needle back down. It's a very...loving action, in my opinion. It keeps me focused."

And you can see similar themes throughout the answers in that thread.

You will find the themes I mentioned over and over in articles on the subject, examples:

Why is vinyl making a comeback?​

Why is vinyl making a comeback? - Reader's Digest

Vinyl is currently one of the most popular physical musical mediums—but why?

www.readersdigest.co.uk

Why Are People Still Buying Vinyl Records?​

https://www.makeuseof.com/why-are-vinyl-records-still-selling/

5 Reasons Why I Listen to Vinyl Records​

5 Reasons Why I Listen to Vinyl Records

When I tell people I own a record player and a not-insignificant number of records, they often write me off as a hipster millennial.

dandesim.medium.com

Top Five Reasons to Buy Vinyl​

Why Buy Vinyl Records? Top Five Reasons

Why buy vinyl records? Far from a nostalgia trip, vinyl is now enjoyed by a wide range of music fans searching for something more tangible.

www.yoursoundmatters.com

"escaping screens," psychological benefits of tangibility, supporting artists, perception of desirable sound, etc...

So, no I'm not just "egotistically" presuming many people have similar reasons. I've been paying attention to the phenomenon for years and have seen all the evidence that these ARE common reasons for people getting in to vinyl.

 

[MattHooper]

One thing I have noticed about ASR in the few months I have been here is that many posters seem to assume the types of music that might be at play, the goals for listening to music, the desired shape of the experience of listening based on their own patterns

Agreed, insofar as you are making the point that some people tend to evaluate other people's choices as silly or unreasonable based on assuming their personal goals, rather than considering how other people's choice make sense given THEIR interests and criteria.

Fortunately I have found this trend has actually subsided quite a bit over the years here. There seems to me a lot more "I get why some people like X but here's why it doesn't appeal to me" responses. It's a generally open minded forum in that regard. There are some hold-outs though.

Secondly, that people here (like in all specialist forums) argue vehemently about minute differences and tend to exaggerate those differences. In this thread it has been stated that vinyl sounds like crap. Which simply isn’t true. It is marginally degraded compared to a good master presented digitally, but the difference isn’t huge. Beyond contamination and damage to the media, the difference between vinyl and digital is pretty small. Played at 90 DBL, my wife can’t tell between digital and vinyl recordings from the same master. Sometimes I can’t tell unless I actively listen for the flaws instead of to the music. And my system isn’t great in terms of vinyl (It’s in my sig.)

Yup. I've said that before, in how we audiophiles tend to exaggerate differences. (That goes for me too of course). It doesn't matter if I put on the vinyl version or CD version of a great recording; either will blow away guests who aren't used to great sound.

At the same time, even a relatively subtle sonic difference can be important to those who care about it.

I have no idea why anyone else is picking up vinyl right now,

There have been explanations in this thread

but thinking it has anything to do with sound quality when those differences are not apparent to almost all listeners who are not critically listening to their equipment, is probably misguided.

I guess it depends on what exactly "critically listening to their equipment" would mean.

There are plenty of vinyl "newbies" who comment on the "sound quality" of vinyl vs what they are used to from digital music. Some of it is negative - e.g. "I don't think vinyl sounds quite as good, but I still like playing it" - to neutral "both digital and vinyl sound fine to me," to positive "I like how vinyl sounds." So while there isn't a concensus, there nonetheless IS quite a lot of talk about the fact vinyl does tend to sound different. It's certainly something many notice - record noise in of itself is going to be a factor. Some people care more than others.

 

[rDin]

Do you think you could tell the difference in a blind test between a turntable playing vinyl and a DAC playing ripped vinyl?

100%, yes. I rip all my vinyl the first time I play it at 192/24. When I play those files back on the same system they do not sound like the live replay of the vinyl.

 

[barfyman362]

100%, yes. I rip all my vinyl the first time I play it at 192/24. When I play those files back on the same system they do not sound like the live replay of the vinyl.

That's not that surprising. I was thinking more of a scenario where someone was attempting to digitally recreate the exact same sound as a certain turntable setup by manipulating either the recording hardware or the files themselves.

 

[rDin]

Why choose to post a statement about "digital issues" on a forum that emphasizes measurements, where the existence of these supposed digital issues are proven not exist?

Because I'm struggling to understand my subjective experience. Vinyl is inferior. Digital is perfect. Yet, I *much* prefer vinyl for music replay because it SOUNDS superior to me. So I was simply laying out my thought process.

Apologies if I offended the sensibilities of the digirati. Jeez. I'm blocking myself now.

 

[Robin L]

I've no idea how those dozens of 'tables, arms, cartridges, or nearly a thousand records wound up here. Must've been that night the aliens snagged me!

I still have a turntable and phono pre in the closet. The turntable, an ultra-cheap plastic belt drive with Audio Technica's fool-proof, bottom of the line conical stylus phono cartridge, tracking at around twenty pounds, and a quote/unquote "Realistic" phono pre just waiting to make mischief.

 

[paddycrow]

100%, yes. I rip all my vinyl the first time I play it at 192/24. When I play those files back on the same system they do not sound like the live replay of the vinyl.

That's not blind.

 

[MattHooper]

Astrology has been going on for centuries, maybe millennia. Homeopathy for 150 years. Bullshit doesn't have an expiration date.

What does that have to do with assessing whether vinyl rates as a "fad?"

Whether something is "b.s" doesn't entail it's a "Fad." Generally, a "Fad" is something that becomes very popular for a short period of time.
Classic examples: Hula-hoop, Pet Rock, Pokémon, Beanie Babies, Mood Rings...and of course various fashions etc.

The longevity of Homeopathy and Astrology clearly aren't "fads" in this common understanding. The truth claim of a fad isn't the point.
It's the intensity of interest combined with a relatively short period of time. There is nothing "b.s." about a hula hoop. But intense short-lived popularity made it a "fad."

Vinyl being on an unbroken upward trajectory for 15 years, still with no end in site, doesn't seem to fit the usual life-span of a "fad." It seems better assessed more along the trajectory of a technology life cycle. The upward trend alone is already approaching the length of time of the ascent and descent of DVDs!

There IS something more to this, and it HAS been explained with real experimental support. It's interesting and a bit distressing to me that no-one has engaged the Uwins experiments I linked earlier.

I guess no one engaged that experiment because it doesn't really address or explain the increased popularity of vinyl.

IIRC, the experiment suggested that in blind tests people will choose digital versions over vinyl for sound quality.

But the popularity of vinyl has far wider and varied explanations than the question of sound quality - the tangibility aspect, the collectibility, the connection it gives people to their music collection, the way lots of people find they focus more in attentive listening to vinyl, the allure of turntables, supporting artists (vs streaming residuals), taking a break from the digital world, the communal aspect of record stores/vinyl community, etc.

Also, even in terms of sound quality - yes there is certainly also many who say "I prefer the sound when I'm listening to vinyl." But remember, even IF they are mistaken about WHY they perceive preferable sound quality from vinyl (e.g. expectation effects), it's still their subjective perception, and hence another motivation. So "people think vinyl sounds better" still goes in to the bin motivations for "why some prefer to buy vinyl" (which, insofar as they are sincerely 'mistaken,' is different from, say, simply ascribing "hipsterism)."

 

[Robin L]

It was actually your point, which I'm simply trying to understand. Thanks for restating... most of it. For the third time - what exactly are these well known issues and what is their real-world audible impact? Not their category, but what they actually are. If you genuinely want to understand the 'why', you need to get to the actual contributors.

On the other hand, the sonic issues of LP playback are well documented and in many cases, damaging to the music in ways not possible with digital record/play. Issues of pitch and speed stability, total harmonic distortion, pre/post groove echo, IGD, warps, clicks and pops, and so on. Those jitter/reconstruction/power noise issues are known and solved, so they are non-issues. Sorry to further mangle an already expired equine, but the sonic issues of LP replay are obvious and in your face. These so-called "issues" with digital are non-issues, they would be inaudible even if these old problems weren't already solved.

 

[MattHooper]

We've been hearing the word "fad" since the beginning of the vinyl resurgence.

Vinyl 2007 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2008 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2009 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad"
Vinyl 2010 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2011 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2012 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2013 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2014 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2015 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2016 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2017 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2018 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2019 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2020 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2021 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."
Vinyl 2022 - Sales increase - "It's just a fad."

 

[IPunchCholla]

You kinda did just that, no?

Did I? I don’t think I said or inferred what anyone else listened to or their listening patterns?

 

[paddycrow]

This site has an animated chart that's pretty cool, you can watch the dominant media change year by year.

format share, 1973 to 2021

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

 

[SIY]

What does that have to do with assessing whether vinyl rates as a "fad?"

That's not the question it was answering.

Clearly you didn't read the Uwins paper, it addressed EXACTLY why some people have a vinyl preference. With experimental data to back it up. But it's so much more fun to wave hands and type prodigiously.