Audiophonics DA-S250NC DAC & Power Amp Review

[AudioSceptic]

I'm on 14.0

First time I try to use this feature, it looks like I can choose how I want media shared ("bluetooth" "printer" and "internet" can be checked individually), and then I get the dialog box below. No idea how this works to be honest, and no idea if it relates to making the files on my mac streamable to the amp. Hopefully Audiophonics can clue me in on the DLNA/UPnP feature of the amp, and explain if I can use EQ of any kind through the WiiM app
View attachment 339702

Ah. That is not "media" in the sense of audio-visual. Internet Sharing, a part of MacOS for ages, just means that a Mac can act as a sort-of network router for other devices. Nothing to do with *any* content on the Mac.

BTW if you want to discuss Mac/computer stuff in more detail, I can recommend <https://groups.io/g/AllApple> and <https://groups.io/g/macsupportcentral>.

 

[Nicolas_]

In the previous menu screen you can select what type of files you want to share, including "media files"

 

[AudioSceptic]

In the previous menu screen you can select what type of files you want to share, including "media files"
View attachment 339723

OK. Media Sharing is a different server. Internet Sharing is no use to you for this. I find Apple Support articles to be helpful. Try <https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp13371337/mac>

Edit: I don't have this to try it, but I'm pretty sure that it uses Apple's own protocols, *not* "open" ones like DLNA/UPnP.

 

[Nicolas_]

I'll give it a read.

 

[Nicolas_]

OK, so to answer my own questions quickly, following email exchange with Audiophonics :
. I can stream from my NAS to DAW-S250NC
. I can also stream my computer files, but I need to install something like Firestream on my Mac
(I haven't tried either of those two yet)
. I won't be able to use WiiM PEQ with my Audiophonic amp, it's only available for WiiM devices

I might try to sell the DAW and go for the simple DA, and add a WiiM Pro Plus, or a similar combination

 

[AudioSceptic]

OK, so to answer my own questions quickly, following email exchange with Audiophonics :
. I can stream from my NAS to DAW-S250NC
. I can also stream my computer files, but I need to install something like Firestream on my Mac
(I haven't tried either of those two yet)
. I won't be able to use WiiM PEQ with my Audiophonic amp, it's only available for WiiM devices

I might try to sell the DAW and go for the simple DA, and add a WiiM Pro Plus, or a similar combination

"I can stream from my NAS" but how? You can run all sorts of server apps on the Synology or other NAS, but what on the Audiophonics connects to them?

Firestream is new to me. I need to find out more.

Edit: It's a DLNA/UPnP server app. It will do on a Mac what Media Server does on a Synology NAS, allowing non-Apple devices to access media on the Mac.

Edit: if you only want a server for music, get MinimServer instead. It's an excellent product with excellent support from its author <https://minimserver.com/install-macosx-mserver.html>

 

[Nicolas_]

"I can stream from my NAS" but how? You can run all sorts of server apps on the Synology or other NAS, but what on the Audiophonics connects to them?

I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to IT, if the server software on the NAS uses the DLNA/UPnP protocol, isn't that enough to communicate with the amp (or rather, the WiiM app on my phone)?
He even told me that I could do it remotely (when I mentioned that my NAS was currently in another place) by, among other things, opening a port on my internet router (not that I'm ever gonna do that, I switch off my internet and NAS when I'm away from that home. The whole NAS issue might be a moot point, I had ripped a few CDs a while ago, and they are stored there, but they might well be duplicates of stuff that I can find either on my GF's Spotify account, or even in my music folder on the mac)

 

[AudioSceptic]

I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to IT, if the server software on the NAS uses the DLNA/UPnP protocol, isn't that enough to communicate with the amp (or rather, the WiiM app on my phone)?
He even told me that I could do it remotely (when I mentioned that my NAS was currently in another place) by, among other things, opening a port on my internet router (not that I'm ever gonna do that, I switch off my internet and NAS when I'm away from that home. The whole NAS issue might be a moot point, I had ripped a few CDs a while ago, and they are stored there, but they might well be duplicates of stuff that I can find either on my GF's Spotify account, or even in my music folder on the mac)

OK. Let's keep it simple. It would help if you tell us what you want to stream, which device it's on, and what you want to stream it to (listen on). Is the NAS not in the same house as the Audiophonics? Is your music on the NAS, the Mac, or both?

 

[DTTOM37]

I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to IT, if the server software on the NAS uses the DLNA/UPnP protocol, isn't that enough to communicate with the amp (or rather, the WiiM app on my phone)?
He even told me that I could do it remotely (when I mentioned that my NAS was currently in another place) by, among other things, opening a port on my internet router (not that I'm ever gonna do that, I switch off my internet and NAS when I'm away from that home. The whole NAS issue might be a moot point, I had ripped a few CDs a while ago, and they are stored there, but they might well be duplicates of stuff that I can find either on my GF's Spotify account, or even in my music folder on the mac)

Pls excuse my lack of knowledge in the Apple cosmos, but can't you install Foobar 2k for MAC including the UPNP component?
I can confirm that it worked under Win10 with the DAW-S250NC when I tested the model this summer with both FB2k and BubbleUPNP server/controller on Android.

About the WIIM firmware for the streaming module:
Unfortunately the module is not delivered by WIIM itself, but a 3d-party supplier. Subsequently, the updates of firmware are rather limited as is the functionality, imho.
In my review I did advise to go with a DA-250 NC and a more recent WIIM streamer if you are interested in added features and regular updates.
There might be as well a bottleneck in performance (based on the the available specs) between the WIIM module and the DAC - iirc.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Pls excuse my lack of knowledge in the Apple cosmos, but can't you install Foobar 2k for MAC including the UPNP component?
I can confirm that it worked under Win10 with the DAW-S250NC when I tested the model this summer with both FB2k and BubbleUPNP server/controller on Android.
View attachment 339967
About the WIIM firmware for the streaming module:
Unfortunately the module is not delivered by WIIM itself, but a 3d-party supplier. Subsequently, the updates of firmware are rather limited as is the functionality, imho.
In my review I did advise to go with a DA-250 NC and a more recent WIIM streamer if you are interested in added features and regular updates.
There might be as well a bottleneck in performance (based on the the available specs) between the WIIM module and the DAC - iirc.

Yes, there's a version for Mac but it's not clear if it includes the server function. I'm trying it out now...

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yes, there's a version for Mac but it's not clear if it includes the server function. I'm trying it out now...

I'm not making much progress. It will play stuff that I add in File > Add Folder and I can see in Preferences > Output that it recognises UPnP clients including Volumio on the network, but I can't see any way of making it send the output to any of them. It doesn't appear as a server in Volumio either so how is that supposed to work?

 

[DTTOM37]

I'm not making much progress. It will play stuff that I add in File > Add Folder and I can see in Preferences > Output that it recognises UPnP clients including Volumio on the network, but I can't see any way of making it send the output to any of them. It doesn't appear as a server in Volumio either so how is that supposed to work?

Which control point software (i.E. BubbleUPnP) are you using to send the output from the server (source) to your renderer (output) ?

 

[Nicolas_]

OK. Let's keep it simple. It would help if you tell us what you want to stream, which device it's on, and what you want to stream it to (listen on). Is the NAS not in the same house as the Audiophonics? Is your music on the NAS, the Mac, or both?

The NAS is not currently here with me - it's in my other place - but It will be in the future.
I would like to stream music stored on it to my DAW-S250NC. According to Audiophonics, I should be able to do that "straight out the box"
Ideally I would also like to be able to do so with files on my computer, but in the end that's not much of an issue, they can also be stored on a NAS later. It just bugs me that my computer doesn't show up on the WiiM android app together with the other devices which are all connected to the wifi (smartphone, amp). Just a niggle, but if I understood correctly, that can be done by installing a server software on the mac.

Incidentally, I wonder if there is a misunderstanding and you think I'm talking about the DA-S250NC, whereas I'm talking about it's streaming capable, wifi version, the DAW-S250NC. This is the thread for the former, the latter doesn't have its own separate thread, but is discussed here.

Pls excuse my lack of knowledge in the Apple cosmos, but can't you install Foobar 2k for MAC including the UPNP component?
I can confirm that it worked under Win10 with the DAW-S250NC when I tested the model this summer with both FB2k and BubbleUPNP server/controller on Android.

Thanks for the suggestion!

About the WIIM firmware for the streaming module:
Unfortunately the module is not delivered by WIIM itself, but a 3d-party supplier. Subsequently, the updates of firmware are rather limited as is the functionality, imho.
In my review I did advise to go with a DA-250 NC and a more recent WIIM streamer if you are interested in added features and regular updates.
There might be as well a bottleneck in performance (based on the the available specs) between the WIIM module and the DAC - iirc.

Bummer. Yeah, I realized belatedly that a simple DA- would have served me well as far as DAC and AMP are concerned, and it would have been better to stick a streamer to it, but a year ago I wasn't even aware of the WiiM devices' existence, and I liked the AIO format of this DAW-, especially at that price point! (my previous amp purchase was a second-hand Nuprime 8, which doesn't have the streaming functionalities except for a bluetooth module, that I paid a handful of euros less than this DAW-, so when it came out I jumped on it. The Nuprime also powers a pair of Concept 40s)

 

[AudioSceptic]

Which control point software (i.E. BubbleUPnP) are you using to send the output from the server (source) to your renderer (output) ?

None. As Foobar is listing UPnP devices, why is it not able to use that protocol itself, to either send content to one of those, or act as a server for those clients?

Note that I'm only trying this as an exercise. MinimServer and Media Server on the Synology work very well with Volumio on the RPi and also Denon CEOL Piccolo.

 

[DTTOM37]

None. As Foobar is listing UPnP devices, why is it not able to use that protocol itself, to either send content to one of those, or act as a server for those clients?

Note that I'm only trying this as an exercise. MinimServer and Media Server on the Synology work very well with Volumio on the RPi and also Denon CEOL Piccolo.

I may imagine you are using the Volumio app and a Denon app to control these units?
If using Bubble as control point, you could select the source/library and the renderer available in your network.
Basically, the DNLA/UPNP architecture asks you for all three components in your network: Server/Source/Library - Control Point/Software - Renderer/Endpoint/DAC.

Volumio (WIIM app likewise) may allow you to add shares (as library source) or could work as an endpoint/renderer with a DAC hat or USB DAC attached for an UPNP server in the network. There are plugins for DLNA/UPNP for Volumio, some of them are sideloads (not officially supported).

- In case of the DAW-250-NC (contrary to the DA-250-NC), you can add the sources on your wifi network (for example your Synology NAS) to the WIIM app, iirc.
I have actually used the DAW with both - a Volumio streamer attached to it's DAC inputs (USB) and UPNP streaming from a WIN10-PC with FB2K to the WIIM module.
Both scenarios worked without issues. The setup at FB2k may prove to be less straightforward.

-If the exercise includes FB2K, make sure to have the latest UNPN component installed.
FB2K in use here - foobar2000_v1.6.16
These are the basic screenshots:

 

[AudioSceptic]

I may imagine you are using the Volumio app and a Denon app to control these units?
If using Bubble as control point, you could select the source/library and the renderer available in your network.
Basically, the DNLA/UPNP architecture asks you for all three components in your network: Server/Source/Library - Control Point/Software - Renderer/Endpoint/DAC.

Volumio (WIIM app likewise) may allow you to add shares (as library source) or could work as an endpoint/renderer with a DAC hat or USB DAC attached for an UPNP server in the network. There are plugins for DLNA/UPNP for Volumio, some of them are sideloads (not officially supported).

- In case of the DAW-250-NC (contrary to the DA-250-NC), you can add the sources on your wifi network (for example your Synology NAS) to the WIIM app, iirc.
I have actually used the DAW with both - a Volumio streamer attached to it's DAC inputs (USB) and UPNP streaming from a WIN10-PC with FB2K to the WIIM module.
Both scenarios worked without issues. The setup at FB2k may prove to be less straightforward.

-If the exercise includes FB2K, make sure to have the latest UNPN component installed.
FB2K in use here - foobar2000_v1.6.16
These are the basic screenshots:
View attachment 340184View attachment 340185View attachment 340186

I have to say that, despite being a mainframe sys admin in a previous life and reasonably capable with networking, I think the whole streaming structure is made more complicated than it needs to be. I can only imagine what it's like for someone like Nicolas.

My setup is:
1. Music (Source) is on a Synology NAS. Synology has its own DLNA/UPnP server, Media Server. This is good but limited (lack of ability to use Sort Artist and Volumio can only play albums from the beginning for some reason), so I also have MinimServer on the Synology. This is fully configurable and excellent.
2. Clients/Players (Renderers) are Volumio on an RPi connected to the main system and the Denon in a small system upstairs. Both easily use both servers. The Denon has its own conventional remote and simple but good display for navigating the music folders. Volumio is controlled either by its own app on iPhone and iPad, or using a web interface on any device. I see these as remote controls. Are they actually "Control Points", or are the latter built-in to the "Renderers"?
3. No need for Bubble as far as I can see. Where would it even be installed, doing what?

More relevant for Nicolas is the WiiM module and app. I take it that the "module" is an app running on the Audiophonics (yes, I know that this is the version with WiFi networking) and it's controlled using the iOS/Android app, but with no web interface option? I hope that Nicolas can just do the following:
1. Get his music onto the NAS.
2. Start Media Server on the NAS (it might need to be installed first but that's simple).
3. Using the WiiM app, select Media Server and then he can play (stream) his music from the NAS on his system.

It's important for a good streaming experience to have consistent and comprehensive metadata (tags) for the music files, but we can go into that later if Nicolas needs any help with that.

 

[DTTOM37]

I have to say that, despite being a mainframe sys admin in a previous life and reasonably capable with networking, I think the whole streaming structure is made more complicated than it needs to be. I can only imagine what it's like for someone like Nicolas.

My setup is:
1. Music (Source) is on a Synology NAS. Synology has its own DLNA/UPnP server, Media Server. This is good but limited (lack of ability to use Sort Artist and Volumio can only play albums from the beginning for some reason), so I also have MinimServer on the Synology. This is fully configurable and excellent.
2. Clients/Players (Renderers) are Volumio on an RPi connected to the main system and the Denon in a small system upstairs. Both easily use both servers. The Denon has its own conventional remote and simple but good display for navigating the music folders. Volumio is controlled either by its own app on iPhone and iPad, or using a web interface on any device. I see these as remote controls. Are they actually "Control Points", or are the latter built-in to the "Renderers"?
3. No need for Bubble as far as I can see. Where would it even be installed, doing what?

More relevant for Nicolas is the WiiM module and app. I take it that the "module" is an app running on the Audiophonics (yes, I know that this is the version with WiFi networking) and it's controlled using the iOS/Android app, but with no web interface option? I hope that Nicolas can just do the following:
1. Get his music onto the NAS.
2. Start Media Server on the NAS (it might need to be installed first but that's simple).
3. Using the WiiM app, select Media Server and then he can play (stream) his music from the NAS on his system.

It's important for a good streaming experience to have consistent and comprehensive metadata (tags) for the music files, but we can go into that later if Nicolas needs any help with that.

I fully agree about that lack of smoothness in the network streaming experiece: DLNA and UPNP are actually non-standardized standards in a way.
That is one importent part of the Spotify success - ease of use. The alternative option is using Airplay - ease of use, too.
Getting up the quality ladder ... it's somehow complicated ... and ROON / Harman are still feast from that situation, imho.

on 2. to my knowledge, the control point is your device (IPhone - IPad) running the app "that discovers Media Servers and Media Renderers, then connects them" (Wikipedia). In case of your Denon, the software on the rendering device that allows you to use the remote functionality would make the Denon device itself to both - renderer and control point (per definition).
OTOH, with FB2K you can have the library (source) and the control point on your computer, and select the ouput (as seen in the screenshot). Yeh, I know ...

on 3. Bubble (on computer, mobile phone or tablet) detects the DLNA/UPNP devices on your network and connects them as control software on the control point device of your choice

for Nicolas, there is are http api based apps for AMC and Windows (Beta) available for WIIM modules, and there would be the need to test out if these work for him.
imo, he doesn't need the NAS as bottom line, if in his network a device with UPNP capabilities exists, like his wifi router / modem which may accept an attached storage by USB (mine from Free does, and the former from Orange did that as well - 2 major French provider), a solution that would work on the same principles. If his computer/server is always on he could use that source as well. Or a small RPI.
Another option could be software like JRIVER (for MAC), which provides the library as DLNA/UPNP library - downside is the always on demand for the library.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I fully agree about that lack of smoothness in the network streaming experiece: DLNA and UPNP are actually non-standardized standards in a way.
That is one importent part of the Spotify success - ease of use. The alternative option is using Airplay - ease of use, too.
Getting up the quality ladder ... it's somehow complicated ... and ROON / Harman are still feast from that situation, imho.

on 2. to my knowledge, the control point is your device (IPhone - IPad) running the app "that discovers Media Servers and Media Renderers, then connects them" (Wikipedia). In case of your Denon, the software on the rendering device that allows you to use the remote functionality would make the Denon device itself to both - renderer and control point (per definition).
OTOH, with FB2K you can have the library (source) and the control point on your computer, and select the ouput (as seen in the screenshot). Yeh, I know ...

on 3. Bubble (on computer, mobile phone or tablet) detects the DLNA/UPNP devices on your network and connects them as control software on the control point device of your choice

for Nicolas, there is are http api based apps for AMC and Windows (Beta) available for WIIM modules, and there would be the need to test out if these work for him.
imo, he doesn't need the NAS as bottom line, if in his network a device with UPNP capabilities exists, like his wifi router / modem which may accept an attached storage by USB (mine from Free does, and the former from Orange did that as well - 2 major French provider), a solution that would work on the same principles. If his computer/server is always on he could use that source as well. Or a small RPI.
Another option could be software like JRIVER (for MAC), which provides the library as DLNA/UPNP library - downside is the always on demand for the library.

This is a good example of why I think this whole thing lacks clarity. In the case of both Volumio and Denon's own SW, the "renderer" and "control point" are combined in those apps. The remote app and web interface just allow easy access and control of those apps, *not* the DLNA/UPnP system itself. With a TV, the remote control doesn't itself actually connect to the broadcast networks, does it? We just use the remote to control the TV to do that. Streaming needs to, and can, be like using a TV.

Nicolas already has a NAS. It would be a shame not to use it to serve music, and maybe other media. It's the obvious central source, allowing any number of devices around the house to play that content, and in terms of both storage and power consumption the cheapest way of doing it.

 

[Nicolas_]

Thank you both for for this interesting discussion
I'll try some of the suggestions when I'm reunited with my NAS.
Don't people stream from their local storage anymore?
I've never been a fan of subscription services, I've only got access to Spotify and Soundcloud through my girlfriend's accounts, so until not long ago I would go go to my public library and borrow and rip the CDs that interested me. Maybe with (quasi) infinite content available through online streaming people don't keep any physical copies of music files anymore...

 

[AudioSceptic]

Thank you both for for this interesting discussion
I'll try some of the suggestions when I'm reunited with my NAS.
Don't people stream from their local storage anymore?
I've never been a fan of subscription services, I've only got access to Spotify and Soundcloud through my girlfriend's accounts, so until not long ago I would go go to my public library and borrow and rip the CDs that interested me. Maybe with (quasi) infinite content available through online streaming people don't keep any physical copies of music files anymore...

Nor me. All our music, apart from one album which I got from Apple Music because I couldn't find it on CD, is ripped from CD, bought new or used. We can stream it anywhere in the house, and because it's also on iPhone, can be listened to on foot or in the car, with no mobile data usage.