Audiophiliac gives Audio Science Review channel a plug

[hardisj]

I watched it. Left me sad and disappointed. Didn't you early on say this after Steve took a shot at me?



Now you are all of a sudden at the other extreme with him "being in your lane?" What happened to "why can't we all get along?"

And what do you mean by "I believe I provide the most accurate data on loudspeakers than anyone?" What do I produce? Random numbers? You use the same bloody instrument I have yet you claim to have the most accurate data? That Klippel references your video so it must be proof of that?

As to being in it for education and not money, please.... You will quit your job in a minute if the youtube revenues started to rival that work as it has for Steve G. and many other youtubers. You are in absolutely the same game as he. You have commercialized the speaker measurements to an extreme with the same business model and plan as Steve. Sponsorships. Ads everywhere. I can't watch your video above without banner ads even though I have ad blocker on.

Do people get valuable data from your work? Absolutely, but please don't make it look like you are just donating them to the world. If you were, there would be no commercialization.

You are a youtuber aiming to make a business out of being one to pursue your hobby as your job. Be proud of it. Be upfront about it. You can't just be objective about audio measurements but in the next breath paint a picture of something you are not.

As to measurements, you also mislead somewhat by implying that they are dead accurate. They are not when it comes to speakers and headphones. Things like dispersion are not fully quantified. Audibility of distortion measurements is suspect. Even interpreting frequency response can be hard at times. Presumably this is why you listen in addition to measuring.

When people ask me I say speaker measurements are 80 to 90% instructive. If you push them beyond that, you are on your own and not backed by what we know about them.

I realize this is a harsh message but you really pushed me over the edge with the commentary and point of view in that video.

LOL. Amir, you need to calm down, man. I have extended an olive branch to you numerous times but no matter what you always try to pit us against each other. Even though we should be on the same side.

To answer your points:
I posted this in my reply:

Well, I tried to be civil in my earlier reply. And I really, truly still feel like even objectivists can go "too far" at times. There is a middle-ground where we just understand and accept that everyone is different.

However, I've had enough.

I think that succinctly states my change of heart.



You provide great measurements. Accurate measurements. On a ton of stuff besides just loudspeakers. I give you props all the time. I would say that in about 25-50% of my videos I mention you and ASR.

But with loudspeakers you stop at FR and THD. My loudspeaker measurements are more thorough. You stated that when @jtwrace had his chat with you. I think you used the term that I am more an "A to Z" tester, even. I'm not sure why my wording offended you given that you have said the same thing. From the horse's mouth:

Also, let me answer your part here about you hoping you weren't the motivation for me getting the NFS and implying I did it to "keep up" with you (which is an incredibly narcissistic thing to say, BTW): You were not. I emailed Klippel about the NFS before I even knew who you were and that you had the NFS. I've got the email proof that I was emailing Klippel before you had the NFS. I was measuring transducers back in 2011. I graduated to DIY speakers a year or two after that. You having the NFS has nothing to do with me getting something I already wanted to get. I know you think that you are the impetus for me doing everything I do but you weren't. I simply thought that me sharing my efforts here was the goal... for the community to have data. I see now, however, that your goal is different than mine.



Ahhh... my YouTube channel and me being "the same" as Steve G. Lordy, lordy. Heads up, Amir, I'm not sure if anyone told you but:
You also have a YouTube channel. It's not monetized. OK. So, you don't make the $8 or 9/day I make off my videos. Congrats. You're better than me. However, you also accept donations and other forms of contributions on your website. And you sure do take pride in telling people how many more followers you have and how many people listen to what you have to say. I guess if that's your goal... to be a "rock star" as you put it in the above link then you succeeded. BTW, if I am in the "same game" as Steve G then you are, too. No matter how you spin it.

And, of course, if I could quit my job today and pursue doing what I am already doing and get paid for it by the viewership at the level my day job pays me then I would. Who wouldn't? You're telling me you wouldn't? You are, really. You have the luxury of retirement so you can say that you wouldn't and we will never know if that is true or not because you don't have to. But, realistically, in a way, you are getting paid. You paid for measurement gear but you're using donations and asking for them in every review. What's the difference? (that's a rhetorical question) You're enjoying doing this... reaping the benefits that you enjoy (whatever those may be) and you get donations to help you offset costs. That's the same thing I am trying to do to keep my hobby alive. Otherwise, I'll just go back to measuring the hard way - like I did before - and keep doing what I was doing. I measured drivers for 10 years before starting a YouTube channel. But you already know this.



Now, moving on to more personal matters since you seem to be making this personal:
You NEVER, not one single time have promoted any of my reviews to your front page. Even when people have asked you to. Your last response to that was that I use affiliate links. But, yet, I don't when I post my reviews here (as you requested me to not do long ago). However, at that very same time you still had your amazon affiliate link for everyone to see. You even have it as of this very moment - just crossed out. Also, FWIW, I don't know that you've ever given my reviews a "thumbs up", let alone promote my reviews to the front page. If you have, it's been a very long time. Nor have you championed for my NFS reviews to be put on the master list of measurements. Something that has been pointed out as missing by other members. Yet, I am still driving content for your site... while hosting the images on my own site. So, my reviews are helping your site while costing nothing to you. I don't know how else to look at it other than it seems as if you don't like me or what I do.
Edit: Now you are saying you don't promote them because I ask for donations. This is literally, the first time you have ever said that to me. You could have simply PM'd me long ago and I would have never done it. Back then it was that I had amazon affiliate links. But now it's something else. Hard for me to hit a moving target.

As I said, I assumed that - even though we have different ways of meeting the same goal - that we could co-exist in this environment together. I even said to you backstage before Joe's livestream last weekend that I respect you and that I hope that you understand that anytime I make a post towards you that it is not to be taken as criticism. That was genuine. And I thought maybe then we buried the hatchet and you seemed like all was well. But I swear, no matter how hard I try, it seems like you just don't want me here. It seems as if you do not see me as a peer but more as a competitor. And I just plain don't understand your animosity toward me.

At any rate, congratulations. You got a reply out of me that you probably wanted but one that no one else wanted to see. And no one else needed to see. The same as the fact that nothing you said to me was as important as you think it was. You want to fragment the community more? Well, there you go.

If you want to berate me and don't want me here then just ask me to leave your forum (or, exercise your forum powers and ban me if you see fit). I don't see the point in trying to participate where I am not welcomed. Let me know if you want me to leave. If you do, I'll do that. If not, please stop with the pedantic back and forth with me. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of you making what you and I do out to be a competition under the guise of "criticism". Making me an enemy doesn't seem like a good way to help the community. But I won't do this silly back and forth with you here. If you want, you can call me directly (and I will only talk to you if you agree that I can record the call just in case stories are spun afterward). You have my phone number. I'm done going back and forth about who has the bigger Klippel here. I don't think it's good for anyone. Certainly not a representation of what I want to contribute to the community.

- Erin

 

[abdo123]

I don't think it's my place to interfere in anyway, but truth be told the compression tests @hardisj does are 10 times more important than anything else provided in the rest of the review and are sorely mised in @amirm 's reviews.

it's much more important to know when the woofer starts giving up on you, as this is not something a user can fix or 'be at peace with', it's literally the speaker stopping to work properly at a certain volume.

 

[amirm]

You provide great measurements. Accurate measurements. On a ton of stuff besides just loudspeakers. I give you props all the time. But with loudspeakers you stop at FR and THD. My loudspeaker measurements are more thorough.

More "thorough" does not mean more accurate. I can produce 10X more graphs than you. Would that then make my measurements more accurate than yours? Answer is no.

You and I differ in that I am exceptionally mindful of the fact that the more graphs, the easier the larger message gets lost. This is why I am brutal about accepting requests for more measurements. If you aim is to educate, then you need to worry about such things. If you want to impress a few enthusiasts, then sure, post 100 graphs.

Anyway, I took your message as a major insult to work I do. Your words were very specific and strong. Posting a few words here after the fact doesn't count the same as what you said in that video.

 

[amirm]

I don't think it's my place to interfere in anyway, but truth be told the compression tests @hardisj does are 10 times more important than anything else provided in the rest of the review and are sorely mised in @amirm 's reviews.

Shame then. I ran compression tests with my Audio Precision analyzer and the results were worthless. Speakers that were supposed to compress less, did not do so. I spent many hours on this so did not give it up easily.

 

[hardisj]

More "thorough" does not mean more accurate. I can produce 10X more graphs than you. Would that then make my measurements more accurate than yours? Answer is no.

You and I differ in that I am exceptionally mindful of the fact that the more graphs, the easier the larger message gets lost. This is why I am brutal about accepting requests for more measurements. If you aim is to educate, then you need to worry about such things. If you want to impress a few enthusiasts, then sure, post 100 graphs.

Anyway, I took your message as a major insult to work I do. Your words were very specific and strong. Posting a few words here after the fact doesn't count the same as what you said in that video.

More attempts to diminish the efforts I go through to provide valuable and useful information to the community, Amir. Geddes and Toole and Laurie Fincham all appreciate the compression tests I provide. I guess they're wrong and I'll let you tell them they're useless. The fact you try to paint your distortion tests as telling as a compression test says a lot as well. An easy example of where distortion will be low but compression high is when a limiter kicks in. Your distortion tests won't show the limiting profile (and thus, how the FR changes at volume). This important information, even though you have attempted to marginalize it.


And the "after the fact" was "before the fact" because I knew you had said that about me so I felt comfortable saying what I did. And, I stand by it. If you find that upsetting then that's not on me to resolve but on you to consider why it bothers you so.

You still haven't addressed why you have: 1) never promoted my reviews, 2) not "liked" any of my reviews and 3) not supported my NFS reviews being in your master list.

As for me monetizing my videos: when you stop accepting donations and patreon then you can talk. Otherwise, it's the same thing. You're monetizing what you do here. My money goes toward me paying for my test gear. Same as yours. While you try to pretend you have a leg up in this moral highroad, you simply do not. It is flawed logic. Of course, if you want to disable your "Donations" tab ... then you can talk, in the same way you "permit" me to talk.

This is my last reply to you. I want to enjoy my family this weekend rather than arguing with you here. We have different goals and values. But that doesn't mean we cannot co-exist without animosity. It seems you do not appreciate the content I provide to your site and I think it best if I just make it easy on you and step away. I'm sure you'll continue to spin whatever I say in to whatever you want it to mean. The same as you did with GoldenSound. So, it's a no "win" for me here and you have succeeded in being the "only" person who has a right to speak on data. I'm not wanted by you because you view me as competition for some silly reason. If you want to resolve this amicably so that the forum has a better shot of getting more information then I'll leave that up to you. But I don't see the point in hanging around where I and my efforts are obviously not appreciated by the forum owner. And to think... all of this because I said something you had already said yourself. Sad. As I said, you have my number. Take care.

 

[amirm]

You NEVER, not one single time have promoted any of my reviews to your front page. Even when people have asked you to.

And won't be doing so given your commercial interest with so many requests for money. Stop that and you will be promoted to home page on every review.

I can't fathom why you don't understand the logic of this. I run a site here with zero advertising and sponsorship. You want me to promote your work when it is constantly nagging for both? Am I a mule for you in that regard?

Respect what we are doing here and then you benefit fully. Have your own game plan and you will have to make do with your own tools.

 

[abdo123]

Shame then. I ran compression tests with my Audio Precision analyzer and the results were worthless. Speakers that were supposed to compress less, did not do so. I spent many hours on this so did not give it up easily.

it is mainly a problem with active speakers with small baffles. As the sensitivity of the woofer starts to decline below ~300Hz, they use DSP to compensate. as a result, the woofer's amplifer quickly runs out of juice at the boosted regions and limiters are engaged.

it can be quite the deal breaker since the region being limited is the region that should be reproduced the loudest.

 

[amirm]

Ahhh... my YouTube channel and me being "the same" as Steve G. Lordy, lordy. Heads up, Amir, I'm not sure if anyone told you but:
You also have a YouTube channel. It's not monetized.

That's right. My channel is not monetized. It doesn't even have links to donate money, patreon or otherwise. It is purely a different channel to spread the voice of science. I can therefore stand on that pedestal and lecture Steve G. You cannot. You are monetizing. Don't use that logic with Steve or he will hit you back and hard.

Now if being in the same business as Steve is distasteful to you, then shut off the monetization and then you can say you are there for good of all. Don't distort the reality of it instead. It doesn't work.

 

[amirm]

it is mainly a problem with active speakers with small baffles. As the sensitivity of the woofer starts to decline below ~300Hz, they use DSP to compensate. as a result, the woofer's amplifer quickly runs out of juice at the boosted regions and limiters are engaged.

it can be quite the deal breaker since the region being limited is the region that should be reproduced the loudest.

You can easily see the effects of that in distortion tests. If levels don't increase then THD% climbs way high. Here is a recent example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ifier-s2000-pro-review-powered-monitor.24255/

 

[amirm]

Nor have you championed for my NFS reviews to be put on the master list of measurements.

I am not in charge of review index. A number of volunteers are and they are doing their best to collect them all form me and others. Here are your current reviews in the database:

 

[amirm]

However, at that very same time you still had your amazon affiliate link for everyone to see.

What? Per member suggestions I got myself qualified to be an Amazon Affiliate but based on negative feedback, I have not used it since. Other than the one or two test cases as the time, I do NOT in any form or fashion use Amazon Affiliate links. I give Amazon pricing and availability but no link and no way for me to earn money from any such purchase.

 

[Blaspheme]

You can easily see the effects of that in distortion tests. If levels don't increase then THD% climbs way high. Here is a recent example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ifier-s2000-pro-review-powered-monitor.24255/

I assume you've thought about how to present these results, but is there a reason for not using log scale?

 

[amirm]

I assume you've thought about how to present these results, but is there a reason for not using log scale?

Yes, very much so. So much that I use the same linear scale in my AP measurements for headphones. Log compresses scales and emphasizes the wrong thing. Take this DT880 review I just posted: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ynamic-dt-880-600-ohm-review-headphone.24694/

Here are the two views of the distortion graph:

Notice how revealing the left graph is as far as where the problem areas is, i.e. the low frequencies. The dB log scale on the other hand, emphasizes the high frequencies by showing them prominently making any such interpretation much harder.

If we needed to see the peaks of the distortion, then log is useful but in the above analysis, it doesn't matter once it blows the top of the chart. But just in case, I do show the log version of the distortion in absolute scale:

Sometimes I find this latter presentation to be more useful but other times, the previous linear one gives the story so much better. Imagine trying to memorize what is good or bad in the second graph. It is hard whereas in the first, as soon as you see the lines shoot up above the top, you know you have a high distortion transducer.

I literally spent days trying to figure out how to present the data in a way that had quick meaning and kept failing until I landed on the above discovery of showing THD+N as a linear percent.

 

[MZKM]

And won't be doing so given your commercial interest with so many requests for money. Stop that and you will be promoted to home page on every review.

I can't fathom why you don't understand the logic of this. I run a site here with zero advertising and sponsorship. You want me to promote your work when it is constantly nagging for both? Am I a mule for you in that regard?

Respect what we are doing here and then you benefit fully. Have your own game plan and you will have to make do with your own tools.

His review posts end with a contribution link, same as yours. Is the issue you take being “a mule”? If not, I don’t see what you are pointing to. But I get not being gung-ho of having someone post to your forum and asking readers for money.

As a consumer, I want more objective data, so if Erin has to partner with B&H to get review samples, that’s fine by me, but that’s just me.

______

I do see the issue you took about Erin stating he provides the most accurate data, when he meant including the compression tests (but this was an off the cuff video where he had some incorrect word usage, like saying measurements were becoming more affluent ).

 

[amirm]

As for me monetizing my videos: when you stop accepting donations and patreon then you can talk.

National Public Television in US accepts donations. Indeed they have concerted donation drives. They do not however accept advertising because that can taint their brand and reputation. Donations are made for the cause. There is no direct exchange of benefits. I don't for example make money because a thread goes crazy with a million replies where as another forum that relies on advertising does. So they could be accused of creating food fights to drive revenues.

Public TV does accept program sponsorships but there cannot be any "call to action." You can say this program brought to you by Google but you can't say, "buy a Pixel phone." Again, they are careful to not give any appearance of bias.

Likewise, Consumer reports accepts donations and subscription fees but not advertising.

I do a review almost once a day. Shipping costs for me is quite high as a result forgetting about the cost of packing and driving to mail things. I also continue to buy a lot of stuff to test. Donations help a ton to offset these costs.

There is thought put into what I do here to create a trusted environment. You just dumped in the deep end of monetization like any other youtuber. We clearly have different goals in this manner.

To be clear, you are of course welcome to do what you want to do. My point simply was that your point in the video was fallacious to say you are in it for education whereas Steve is there for money. You both are in identical profession as facts clearly demonstrate.

 

[jtwrace]

like saying measurements were becoming more affluent ).

It does take "wealth" to produce NFS measurements.

 

[amirm]

His review posts end with a contribution link, same as yours. Is the issue you take being “a mule”? If not, I don’t see what you are pointing to. But I get not being gung-ho of having someone come to your forum and ask readers for money.

He posts videos here that Google monetizes for him using advertising. Here is how it looks on the video he post here:

Every review starts with a link back to his own website where he has sponsored links:

It is unprofessional and improper to do so much promotion on our backs here. Did he even ask once if it was OK to do any of this? No. He even used to post sponsored links right in the thread here and I had to ask him repeatedly to stop that before he did.

Even if he was just doing what I am doing it is still improper. He doesn't do anything to run this forum so saying he deserves donations like I do makes no sense. He would get banned immediately from any other commercial forum if he post as he does here.

Now, given the huge benefit we all get from his measurements, I look the other way. As I have for months but not when he goes on and on about how he is similarly situated to me. He is not.

 

[jtwrace]

My point simply was that your point in the video was fallacious to say you are in it for education whereas Steve is there for money.

I really think what you both do is quite remarkable b/c quite frankly, I certainly wouldn't invest that much time in what you both do. My lonely non monetized podcast is enough for me...I have other hobbies that aren't like work.

Well, in Steve's mind I would argue that he would say he's in for education too. Obviously a different way and indeed making money at the same time. Erin OTOH, is trying to offset his costs like you, right? I'm trying to discern the difference of him making pennies vs you taking Patreon and/or ASR site donation (as I did).

You both are in identical profession as facts clearly demonstrate.

I don't see it that way honestly. Erin is trying to offset the costs of his website, NFS and products as you are as I mentioned above. Steve, is making his living by being a reviewer with YT hits etc along with the typical reviewer way of making money as Erin mentioned in his video.

 

[amirm]

Erin OTOH, is trying to offset his costs like you, right?

No, not like me. I am incredibly careful to make sure sources of funding do not in any way taint what I do and what I represent. Whether this is in optics or reality. How you earn that money matters. When members didn't want me to use Amazon sponsorships, I didn't. End of story. Yet Erin uses such. How do we equate these two efforts?

Of course he is welcome to have whatever approach he wants. My point originally was that with all the commercialization he is doing, there is no way to make a straight face argument that he is better than Steve G. I actually don't know if Steve even does sponsored links. If not, then he is actually ahead of Erin in his "purity" of approach.

You can't run a network like NBC and then say you are just like PBS. Decide what you are and be transparent about it.

 

[MZKM]

He posts videos here that Google monetizes for him using advertising. Here is how it looks on the video he post here:

View attachment 138822

Every review starts with a link back to his own website where he has sponsored links:

View attachment 138829

It is unprofessional and improper to do so much promotion on our backs here. Did he even ask once if it was OK to do any of this? No. He even used to post sponsored links right in the thread here and I had to ask him repeatedly to stop that before he did.

Even if he was just doing what I am doing it is still improper. He doesn't do anything to run this forum so saying he deserves donations like I do makes no sense. He would get banned immediately from any other commercial forum if he post as he does here.

Now, given the huge benefit we all get from his measurements, I look the other way. As I have for months but not when he goes on and on about how he is similarly situated to me. He is not.

Gotcha, and I 100% understand your reasoning and why you stand by it.

Just remember in your video for HiFi Summit (can’t recall if the main video or the after-video) that I think it was Joe that mentioned how you come off a lot less abrasive on video vs text. I for instance would not prefer Erin feel like he is being is run off the forum and decide to no longer post here (but again, I understand your reaction to Erin stating he provides the most accurate data).