Audiophiliac gives Audio Science Review channel a plug

[hardisj]

I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has a huge fanbase of subjective-oriented folks and has given this group a chance to be seen by them. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it. The bottom line is Steve gave a shoutout to ASR (regardless of how you feel about him or his message). People may go "hmmm, what's that about". They come here, see a bunch of guys talking bad about people of their ilk and go "oh, yea, this ain't for me" and then leave. That opportunity is squandered.

/my $0.02

 

[mhardy6647]

THIS was built to annoy, the incomparable Short and Parsons Auxetophone:

View attachment 119315

not even in the same solar system as the Hemi-powered sirens of the Cold War era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Air-raid_Siren
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2019/08/the-chrysler-air-raid-siren-was-so.html

 

[_thelaughingman]

I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "easier you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has given this group a chance to be seen. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it.

/my $0.02

Absolutely agree with you on this. Let's coexist on having differing opinions be it subjective or objective, an amalgamation of both only serves to make things better for all.

 

[tomtoo]

I had not heard of him before but just watched a few of his videos. He does bring good technical depth to topics but is not afraid of moving past what is supported and proper stance of audio science and proper engineering. As such, you can easily be misled by what he is saying. His great British accent and eloquent speaking can appeal to one's softer side to believe what one should not.

He made that video about a technics amp. And the unlinear FR of Japanese amps. Since this video, i think he has NO technical knowledge. He is spreading british hifi myths, without knowing anythink deeper about Technologie.

 

[Robin L]

not even in the same solar system as the Hemi-powered sirens of the Cold War era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Air-raid_Siren
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2019/08/the-chrysler-air-raid-siren-was-so.html

View attachment 119317

View attachment 119318

One of the most interesting things about the Auxetophone. It deployed a compressed air amplifier, developed some 20 years before the electronic amplifier. Its evolution led to an amplifier so loud [165db], it was used to test the physical integrity of rockets:

The Auxetophone. (douglas-self.com)

The rest . . . . . . of the story:

The Auxetophone. (douglas-self.com)

 

[mhardy6647]

One of the most interesting things about the Auxetophone. It deployed a compressed air amplifier, developed some 20 years before the electronic amplifier. Its evolution led to an amplifier so loud [165db], it was used to test the physical integrity of rockets:

The Auxetophone. (douglas-self.com)

The rest . . . . . . of the story:

The Auxetophone. (douglas-self.com)

cool.
and I stand corrected, too!

 

[Thunder22]

He's passionate about this stuff and it shows. If you don't want to watch him, then don't. Personally I've watched a few of his videos and I thought they were fun; subjective sure, but he makes this very clear. If I wanted to take subjective advice it probably would be from him since he has listened more equipment than a whole bunch of us combined. Bottom line is If I watch the Audiophiliac or somebody else online and want more information I type audiosciencereview.com and look for measurements. Now he has told his followers about this site and that can only be a good thing.

 

[brandall10]

Pretty much any enthusiast industry has them, the folks who cater to the emotional vs. objective experience, and the value they bring is having boatloads of experience with widgets of type X they're reviewing, because that's what they do, and normal people simply don't, because they don't have the time or capital.

Of course being subjective, there's going to be a pattern surrounding what they like or don't, and whether or not that jives with your own personal preferences is key on whether or not you want to listen to them. And there is the sponsorship aspect to what they do that allows them to continue doing what they do that needs to be tip-toed around. It's like a politician, the job they do needs to be balanced with the dirty things they must do to maintain doing that job. It's not all bad though, it's just what it is and needs to be noted.

Of course in audio you'll find folks who like terrible measuring equipment (ie. tube amps or super $$ DACs that don't hold a candle to recently engineered $100 dongles), and you might think that their word is total bunk. OTOH, there was a blind test I recall reading here on ASR with a group of folks selecting a terrible measuring speaker amp over the top rated $3k Benchmark.

What is musical is an interesting thing. It's part of the human experience. And these folks are a footnote to that. I've been into audiophile stuff going on 20 years now, mostly with headphone audio, and folks like this absolutely fit the mold of the type I'd meet at various headphone meetups, they're just doing it professionally. However misguided you may think they are, it is undeniable that this is something they are quite passionate about and are devoting a large chunk of their lives to.

 

[Thomas savage]

I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has a huge fanbase of subjective-oriented folks and has given this group a chance to be seen by them. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it. The bottom line is Steve gave a shoutout to ASR (regardless of how you feel about him or his message). People may go "hmmm, what's that about". They come here, see a bunch of guys talking bad about people of their ilk and go "oh, yea, this ain't for me" and then leave. That opportunity is squandered.

/my $0.02

Your on the money with this from a perspective of someone who wants their work to reach the farthest broadest possible base / viewership.

Most are not so invested and simply are fed up with the self indulgence amd misinformation that is inherent in subjective, revenue driven advertisements ( there not reviews) .

A few years ago those people were a tiny minority and very much treated as hostile insurgents in the ' hobby ' they loved , felt marginalised and very much under attack from a huge swathe of unsubstantiated ' subjective ' type ' truths ' that often ran counter to science and engineering and very often seemed exploitative. Forums tend to reinforce divisions, binary dynamics and self affirmation drive this .

Theres a platform now for something more , there's a platform for someone like you to publish content and move beyond the binary arguments and divisiveness that one could argue layed the foundation for that platform.

You can't blame folks for still being on the ' us vs them ' roundabout, however its encouraging to see things starting to go beyond that . I think YouTube helps that , publishing videos and not getting bogged down with forum type debates will help massively imo .

However we don't want ' jar heads ' disagreement and debate is vital, to simply say " hay man , just believe your own truth " is a cop out imo . One that might help veiwing numbers , maybe thats enough and will be effective in turning audio away from the commercially driven self indulgent and absolute corruption that has become the Hi End audio industry, seductive as it all is .

In the end people if they are interested need to choose a path , for those that want to influence
them blowing their jacket and hood off with force winds might not be the best way , a little sunshine and warmth likely works best .. and @hardisj is the sunshine imo .

Keep up the good work , don't be too hard on those who are still in combat mode ..

 

[SimpleTheater]

I don't really get the negativity against professional subjective reviewers such as Guttenberg and Darko.

And there is the sponsorship aspect to what they do that allows them to continue doing what they do that needs to be tip-toed around. It's like a politician, the job they do needs to be balanced with the dirty things they must do to maintain doing that job. It's not all bad though, it's just what it is and needs to be noted.

I think you answered your own question.

 

[brandall10]

I think you answered your own question.

But by that observation (I went back and edited it out btw, because I *knew* it would get this kneejerk reaction), I'm saying it's not a bad thing - it's something that's deserves a nuanced consideration. To take this wholesale to the negative is totally whitewashing away the point I was making.

 

[Nullproblemo]

He's passionate about this stuff and it shows. If you don't want to watch him, then don't. Personally I've watched a few of his videos and I thought they were fun; subjective sure, but he makes this very clear. If I wanted to take subjective advice it probably would be from him since he has listened more equipment than a whole bunch of us combined. Bottom line is If I watch the Audiophiliac or somebody else online and want more information I type audiosciencereview.com and look for measurements. Now he has told his followers about this site and that can only be a good thing.

I just can't agree. It might be possible for few people to watch such videos as an entertainment only. But I don't accept any misleading statements, not even with a 'subjective' disclaimer. 2nd These guys are quite successful which leads to even more copycats and few years later the whole industry has shifted towards useless subjective marketing terminology. Of course this is not only true for audio equipment but for many other sectors. I fully understand that not everybody wants to understand measurements and complex technical processes but one should not underestimate the influence of such videos becoming the new 'standard' for reviews.

We get fooled nonstop ! And not everybody is conscious that it happens.

It might be okay if you find a healthy balance between informative and marketing videos but it's not okay to find 90% of bullshit content. Where do you think the youngsters and newbies are landing? And the subsequent consequences in consumer behavior, defining which products will come next to the market?

 

[Nullproblemo]

Btw, can anyone name a serious objective review channel ? I guess that's really really hard to find!

 

[amirm]

I tell you what I hate in all these videos: "this is my opinion, yours may be completely different and you have to decide what is right for you." In that case, please don't bother telling me what you think if you don't think it applies to us! I don't recall my doctor saying, "this is my medical opinion and of course, it may have nothing to do with your condition!"

When I see a review, I like to see a definitive point of view, backed by solid data. In rare cases this may not be possible but otherwise, it absolutely is. If a reviewer can't represent whether a product is well designed or not, they need to get out of reviewing business. Instead, they should do informercials and entertainment videos.

Of course it is convenient to have that "out." Oh you don't agree with me? I said you may not! Oh, you listened to these two speakers and you think opposite of me? I said you may! Shows total lack of confidence in know if they are right or not. Oddly that is the reality of it.

So for me, you are never going to see me with wishy washy opinion. I will have a point of view and I will express it per above with proper backing.

 

[SimpleTheater]

So for me, you are never going to see me with wishy washy opinion. I will have a point of view and I will express it per above with proper backing.

I love Amir, but did you have to post this less than 24 hours after writing this:
Conclusions
I don't have any for you! This speaker busted my chops. I think it is a flawed design by it is broken in a way that creates a more pleasing sound than one would expect. Not sure if this is by design or what. Or whether it is my failing in characterizing it. You have the data. You chime in as to what you think.

Overall, I am not going to recommend the Triangle Borea BR03. It just didn't sound satisfying to me. But I could be wrong enough that other praise for it could very well be correct.

 

[mansr]

I tell you what I hate in all these videos: "this is my opinion, yours may be completely different and you have to decide what is right for you." In that case, please don't bother telling me what you think if you don't think it applies to us! I don't recall my doctor saying, "this is my medical opinion and of course, it may have nothing to do with your condition!"

When I see a review, I like to see a definitive point of view, backed by solid data. In rare cases this may not be possible but otherwise, it absolutely is. If a reviewer can't represent whether a product is well designed or not, they need to get out of reviewing business. Instead, they should do informercials and entertainment videos.

Of course it is convenient to have that "out." Oh you don't agree with me? I said you may not! Oh, you listened to these two speakers and you think opposite of me? I said you may! Shows total lack of confidence in know if they are right or not. Oddly that is the reality of it.

So for me, you are never going to see me with wishy washy opinion. I will have a point of view and I will express it per above with proper backing.

I suspect those people see themselves more as art critics than reviewers of technical products. Of course reviewing an engineered device as though it were a piece of art is the wrong approach, but lacking (and actively resisting) any knowledge about the actual workings of the products, they don't realise this. They probably imagine the design process for a DAC or amp being akin to making a painting, just with a soldering iron in place of a brush.

 

[Thomas savage]

I tell you what I hate in all these videos: "this is my opinion, yours may be completely different and you have to decide what is right for you." In that case, please don't bother telling me what you think if you don't think it applies to us! I don't recall my doctor saying, "this is my medical opinion and of course, it may have nothing to do with your condition!"

When I see a review, I like to see a definitive point of view, backed by solid data. In rare cases this may not be possible but otherwise, it absolutely is. If a reviewer can't represent whether a product is well designed or not, they need to get out of reviewing business. Instead, they should do informercials and entertainment videos.

Of course it is convenient to have that "out." Oh you don't agree with me? I said you may not! Oh, you listened to these two speakers and you think opposite of me? I said you may! Shows total lack of confidence in know if they are right or not. Oddly that is the reality of it.

So for me, you are never going to see me with wishy washy opinion. I will have a point of view and I will express it per above with proper backing.

Doctors do say that , my surgeon has for one . Iv nerve related issues in my should and lower body, neuromuscular issues.

The surgeon and various consultants have each expressed ideas of the causes with no conviction of true origin while suggesting I could easily find other professionals who would happily operate etc.

So its a huge doubt salad , no facts or certainty as often is the case in medicine it seems .

Medicine and doctors are very poor examples when it comes to offering notions of complet certainty and absolutes.

More often than not its a case of ' we are not really sure , let's try this and see what happens ' so fault finding through a process of elimination whether is be the search for cause with relation to effect or the most effective treatment.

I dont know where your doctors who have such definitive answers come from but iv never met one. What you describe with your hughly over used doctor patient analogy is merely a example of trust , thats a belief threshold one reaches and that belief can be misplaced regardless of how many letters the doctor has after their name .

Youd be better off using a analogy based on expert mechanics who are specialists in a particular brand of vehicle or a field that involves Inanimate objects!

 

[JSmith]

you guys

a bunch of guys

Might be better to be more inclusive... female humans listen to speakers too and frequent audio forums, just sayin'. I'm sure you wouldn't want to give an "us vs them" impression of ASR.



JSmith

 

[mansr]

Might be better to be more inclusive... female humans listen to speakers too and frequent audio forums, just sayin'. I'm sure you wouldn't want to give an "us vs them" impression of ASR.

Plural 'guys' as quoted by you is already gender neutral.

 

[JSmith]

is already gender neutral

True, but very much depends on context and culture... keeping in mind ASR is an international forum in many ways;

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/08/guys-gender-neutral/568231/

It's the plural of guy... "bunch of guys" isn't the same as "you guys" really. Totally know what you mean though, just a thought on moving away from such terms.

As for the rest of that members post, the "us vs them" thing is a bit silly and doesn't really exist tbh… one either likes audio and tries to get the best products they can or they don't. Sure then within that group there is those that look at spec's and measurements before bothering trying a product and those that rely on mystical fantasy instead to try to achieve the same goal. One can't have a valid scientific discussion with a "flat Earther" for example, nor can their opinion on Earth ever be valid... so no point saying "you have a right to your opinion" in those cases.



JSmith