So, do you want equipment tested by educated geeks or uneducated not jobs?
I just want the truth. Give me the truth and let me decide. Don't try and fool me with catchwords and fake awards.
So, do you want equipment tested by educated geeks or uneducated not jobs?
After reading 22 pages in this thread, all I have to say is "Phooey"! It can easily be summed up as subjectivists are basically uneducated nut jobs and subjectivists are educated geeks. So, do you want equipment tested by educated geeks or uneducated not jobs? It is a simple decision to make whichever way you pick.
I love the broad brush afforded to me by the internet!
Well, your beliefs certainly trump all the scientific evidence and practices to the contrary and that it is the "subconscious" that is specifically controlled for. Enjoy.
"Silencing" of the conscious mind is one of the goals of transcendental meditation.This is actually a common argument on audio forums: “I thought the more pricey amplifier X will outperform the amplifier Y, but after listening to both I ended up buying the amplifier Y, so how can you say I could’ve been biased!?”. It’s as common as “my wife confirmed the difference”.
It doesn’t work that way. You cannot simply take a deep breath and think “Okay, let’s be objective and focus on how it sounds” to make the bias you’re even aware of disappear. Your mind may still steer you wrong because of the very bias (or some other stuff you’re completely unaware of, like the amplifier Y resembling something your conscious mind doesn’t remember). Even after confirming there’s no difference in a double blind test you may still keep barely noticing “subtle differences”.
I imagine with proper exercises, discipline, education and experience one can better their judgement, but to say you can take complete control over the subconscious is a bold statement and I doubt many people get even close.
So, do you want equipment tested by educated geeks or uneducated not jobs?
So, has anyone switched sides and stayed there?
In my experience, sceptic and ironic communities attract more interesting people as mature people don't treat themselves too seriously and you can't push their buttons as easily. "Special" people are quick to make demands about what shouldn't be allowed anymore because someone may get sore. Be well.
Being sometimes ironic or facetious is not the same as "insulting" someone. I don't know what made "this country" so great because I'm not from "this" country, but I can tell you I like American comedy from the 80s and 90s more than anything recent. Also, I see no reason for using CAPS so often.i have never met a "MATURE" person whom needs to sling insults just to get there point across
Being sometimes ironic or facetious is not the same as "insulting" someone. I don't know what made "this country" so great because I'm not from "this" country, but I can tell you I like American comedy from the 80s and 90s more than anything recent. Also, I see no reason for using CAPS so often.
I'm a little late to the party, but those are two interesting examples of "do all amplifiers sound the same and is it measurable".I do remember the Denon sounding a bit harsh in comparison. Do you all discard that the Marantz has some attenuation in the high frequencies? I think their claim is not transparency but enjoyment.
I've been looking for two amps reviewed here and I found the following.
This a Denon reviewed here:...
And this is a Marantz:...
Source: digitalsoundandmusic.comChange of sound amplitude,How it is perceived in human hearing
1 dB,”smallest perceptible difference in loudness, only perceptible in acoustically-insulated noiseless environments”
3 dB,smallest perceptible change in loudness for most people in real-world environments
+10 dB,an approximate doubling of loudness
Source: Sound Reproduction, Floyd TooleThe simplest deviation from flat is probably a spectral tilt.
There is some evidence that we can detect slopes of about 0.1 dB/octave...
Nice work. So the Marantz should sound warmer and depending on your musical reference and upper frequency hearing, the Denon should sound brighter and/or have more air. Or, since the Denon actually rises in the treble, sound harsh as xaviescacs perceived. Especially if the speaker pairing exacerbated this.I'm a little late to the party, but those are two interesting examples of "do all amplifiers sound the same and is it measurable".
If we set the Denon as reference, normalize to the frequency response (FR) of the Denon, and look at the deviation in the FR of the Marantz, the differences in the FR are very obvious.
View attachment 138011
Is this difference perceptible in a hearing test?
You have to distinguish between the perceptibility of a loudness difference, for example the difference of a sine tone at 80dB and 82dB, which is very difficult to perceive...:
Source: digitalsoundandmusic.com
...and the perceptibility of a spectral tilt (deviation from flat FR, as in our case above), which can be "easily" perceived.
Source: Sound Reproduction, Floyd Toole
The Marantz amplifier has a frequency response drop of 0.3-0.4 dB/oct in the 5-10kHz range compared to the Denon, which should result in an "easily" perceivable change in sound/timbre (not amplitude/loudness change).
Note: "some evidence" does not make it "easily" perceivable.The simplest deviation from flat is probably a spectral tilt.
There is some evidence that we can detect slopes of about 0.1 dB/octave...
Please, don't continue make a fool of yourself.Note: "some evidence" does not make it "easily" perceivable.
I've added a 0.1dB/octave spectral tilt to your graph.
View attachment 138026
My prediction: no one can hear the difference between these two receivers in a blind test (either level matched, or with volume set to zero after each switch, and then adjusted blind by the listener).
No, I didn't. You misunderstood me. My own hearing is not good, which I freely admit.Please, don't continue make a fool of yourself.
You claimed you can sense 0.5db yesterday, but have to retract that statement soon after.
You prediction already proven wrong.
No, I didn't. You misunderstood me. My own hearing is not good, which I freely admit.
The tilt in the graph is 0.1 db per octave, which was the tilt that Toole said might be audible.
You have compared the Marantz to the Denon? I don't think so.
And my standard for success is 18/20 or 65/100, or p<0.0002. I don't care what your standard is.
It's fine to believe... it can bring great pleasure.
It's better to know... it can bring piece of mind.
My prediction: no one can hear the difference between these two receivers in a blind test (either level matched, or with volume set to zero after each switch, and then adjusted blind by the listener).
Nice work. So the Marantz should sound warmer and depending on your musical reference and upper frequency hearing, the Denon should sound brighter and/or have more air. Or, since the Denon actually rises in the treble, sound harsh as xaviescacs perceived. Especially if the speaker pairing exacerbated this.
I expect there would be many cases where a closer look at measurements and a more nuanced understanding of audio perception will explain audible differences that may otherwise be hand-waved away as imaginary (which doesn't mean that all perceived differences are non-imaginary, of course).
and the perceptibility of a spectral tilt (deviation from flat FR, as in our case above), which can be "easily" perceived.