• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

ATC speakers / Monitors

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,398
Likes
3,089
Location
Midwest, USA
I agree completely - comfort and familiarity drive a lot of decisions, and why not? But the commenter said professionals choose things to make them feel special about themselves, as if seeking status in a psychological way, which is patently absurd.

I doubt @Ilkless means that's the conscious reason they are deciding on something, as if they were trying on clothes and seeing what what they looked best in, but rather that buying into the "story" about a brand is a very strong subconscious influence that also retroactively strengthens itself to justify the past decision.

I could be reading too much into him though...

I judge my own results in an entirely empirical, numbers-based way - sales. If certain gear in certain rooms makes more commercially attractive product, I'm all over it. Nothing to do with making myself feel special. That's the real difference between pro and domestic - in the pro world, stakes are high; at home, stakes are nonexistent.

Are you talking about final sales to the consumer? How could you possibly determine the cause of the sales?
 

Inner Space

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,210
Likes
2,659
Are you talking about final sales to the consumer? How could you possibly determine the cause of the sales?
I can't, in any meaningful sense, except that of course almost all sales are about the performer or the material or both. Nothing to do with backroom people. But all those people know deep down whether it's a good product, and they know deep down whether they contributed. If they did a good job, they're entitled to a tiny fraction of the credit. (Sometimes they know for sure - their effect or edit starts every video.) So they see overall sales as a plausible metric for their own fractional contribution. The comment was a response to your implication that e.g. accounting was far more empirical than cinema or the music business. Honestly, I think it's the other way around.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
5,951
Likes
18,070
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
While you're at it, could you tell another few users to maybe stop effectively calling people who own ATCs stupid?

Maybe a general reset on the antagonism would be good all around.

I'll remove the thread ban for @Torbachkristensen as well, but will ask if we can please dial the snark back a bit.
 

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
143
Likes
126
Thanks. But I think there is not much more to discuss. This link to carefully crossed and DSP optimized setup, was the perfect illustration of the differences of approach and experience - I can look at that (reasonably good) FR, great SR, great GD and overall very impressive measurements, and then take one look at the room pictures and instantly deduct that this was a setup solely made to measure flat at LP, and nothing else. It is all for show, and has nothing to do with proper interest in music reproduction. You take one look at the RT60 you see what is wrong - this is an acoustically mediocre room, with unbalanced decay time, and all this flat response is just for show. The sound in room will be nothing like what most of the measurements indicate, and any kind of constant directivity advantages have been ruined by the scattered sources, that will only work in relation to 1 measuring point in the room, and hence is not really practically useable. Much like what Klaus Heinz points out.

I will not engage in further discussion here, as I find the disregard of bigger ATC’s as valid designs on the basis of 1 compact 3-way model (the problems can be deducted just from looking at the front driver layout and cabinet design), and low interest in what creates great room integration, and why Constant Directivity and DSP is not the only tool to mediate room problems, and certainly shouldn’t be the first. The ATC110 measurements posted are completely raw in-room, without a single EQ move to flatten the response, and completely free of room modes, from just turning on the speakers and measuring. Whenever I have the time to do proper measurements, I will certainly get back and post them so the OP has some valid and up-to-date info to base an opinion on. I suspect directivity to quite a lot better on ATC50/100/110/150. I will measure and find out at some point. Maybe Amir will have a pair on the bench in the meantime.

And to expand on what some others here have stated, a lot of pro users, especially mixing engineers, ultimately do purchase speakers based on what they make them do to the audio material, and not how they ultimately sound or measure. Yes, it should be an attribute for studio monitors to have relatively even FR, but probably the most popular mix speaker has been the NS10, followed by the Proac Studio 100, both of which are not very accurate or extended, but appreciated for how they present music, at least by older generations. ATC's have in recent years gotten quite popular as a mixing tool, and used to be seen primarily in mastering for it's fast and accurate lowend and how wide a spectrum the Mid dome covers, without compromising dynamics. Whether they are good are not, I think has been debated enough.

Thanx for a lively discussion - very… informative :) And BTW, the JBL M2 is a freakin awsome speaker!
 
Last edited:

Ilkless

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
1,475
Likes
2,816
Location
Singapore
Maybe a general reset on the antagonism would be good all around.

I'll remove the thread ban for @Torbachkristensen as well, but will ask if we can please dial the snark back a bit.

All I'm seeing is people who can't accept when their completely unsubstantiated subjective waffle is challenged with evidence, can't accept that their sighted anecdotal listening impressions are demonstrably unreliable because non-sound attributes invariably taint what they pass off as purely impressions of ATC's sonic attributes in sighted conditions, and lots of goalpost shifting where ATC is somehow both engineering-driven and also has some mystical unquantifiable properties that down to large primitive drivers within a stagnant design paradigm.

These are usually quite uncontroversial points here on ASR but ATC fetishisation seems to be particularly strong and deep seated in practically all audio circles.

I doubt @Ilkless means that's the conscious reason they are deciding on something, as if they were trying on clothes and seeing what what they looked best in, but rather that buying into the "story" about a brand is a very strong subconscious influence that also retroactively strengthens itself to justify the past decision.

I could be reading too much into him though...



Are you talking about final sales to the consumer? How could you possibly determine the cause of the sales?


The point about story is correct. But I think it's also about how ATC users are presented as some aspirational, enlightened clique. So there is also an element of status signalling.
 
Last edited:

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,398
Likes
3,089
Location
Midwest, USA
But I think it's also about how ATC users are presented as some aspirational, enlightened clique. So there is also an element of status signalling.

Is that a thing at Gearslutz or something broader?
 

Freeway

Active Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2021
Messages
231
Likes
282
There is just something about my ATCs
Like going home.
A dear old friend.
A favorite pair of well worn shoes.
Happens every time I think to plug them in, which this thread prompted me to do. Most of the time they get little love around here anymore.
Yep, it happened again.
Probably never get rid of them.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Party down.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
2,568
Likes
1,932
well after all these debates I do think both sides have the same fact:

ATC are good/ok, but it's only great/SOTA at the, say, good old 70s-80s or even 90s. they didn't go backwards from those era but also didn't move forward a lot like some other new/old brands did. So are they good? of course, a ton of really annoying sounding/measuring speakers literally litters the world, for @Torbachkristensen room, it of course is a well integrated room with all those old fashioned room treatments and design into a new room, it surely is good (or the designer will get killed starving).

IMO are ATC crap? surely not, are they STOA and champs most other pro solutions? Um~ almost surely not either. The whole pro thing is as stated before, completely irrelevant, going pro gear usually is just some more widely available/adopted brands, with performance enough to get the job done. look at those pro rack mounted amps measured here, I can't recall any one really competitive in performance to great consumer amps, but the fit in the rack, have the connectors needed, and performs good enough, with maybe a loud cooling fan which the whole thing is placed in another room so won't bother.

the non-sota was believed to be so is that when I applied my own, untreated gaming room with a pair of genelecs, not using any dip sswitches or EQ above 400hz, using the same smoothing (1/3) as @Torbachkristensen setup. that's how close the tonalitty of a pair of contempary speaker in a 1.2m (W) * 3m (L) gaming room built by concrete and literally figures and books or other crap just put around the speakers can go.

Room First Measurement NO XOVER.jpg
 

Chrise36

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
858
Likes
276
well after all these debates I do think both sides have the same fact:

ATC are good/ok, but it's only great/SOTA at the, say, good old 70s-80s or even 90s. they didn't go backwards from those era but also didn't move forward a lot like some other new/old brands did. So are they good? of course, a ton of really annoying sounding/measuring speakers literally litters the world, for @Torbachkristensen room, it of course is a well integrated room with all those old fashioned room treatments and design into a new room, it surely is good (or the designer will get killed starving).

IMO are ATC crap? surely not, are they STOA and champs most other pro solutions? Um~ almost surely not either. The whole pro thing is as stated before, completely irrelevant, going pro gear usually is just some more widely available/adopted brands, with performance enough to get the job done. look at those pro rack mounted amps measured here, I can't recall any one really competitive in performance to great consumer amps, but the fit in the rack, have the connectors needed, and performs good enough, with maybe a loud cooling fan which the whole thing is placed in another room so won't bother.

the non-sota was believed to be so is that when I applied my own, untreated gaming room with a pair of genelecs, not using any dip sswitches or EQ above 400hz, using the same smoothing (1/3) as @Torbachkristensen setup. that's how close the tonalitty of a pair of contempary speaker in a 1.2m (W) * 3m (L) gaming room built by concrete and literally figures and books or other crap just put around the speakers can go.

View attachment 225497
Are not the Genelec eq'd from the manufacturer? Btw their fr looks like a w and the ATC harman(ish) while most believe and accuse ATC of the opposite go figure...
 

goat76

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
553
Likes
485
well after all these debates I do think both sides have the same fact:

ATC are good/ok, but it's only great/SOTA at the, say, good old 70s-80s or even 90s. they didn't go backwards from those era but also didn't move forward a lot like some other new/old brands did. So are they good? of course, a ton of really annoying sounding/measuring speakers literally litters the world, for @Torbachkristensen room, it of course is a well integrated room with all those old fashioned room treatments and design into a new room, it surely is good (or the designer will get killed starving).
What do you mean by "old fashion" room treatment, that's the only real way of getting the decay times down. With EQ you can basically just flatten the frequency response but the decay times will roughly stay the same or just be somewhat reduced caused by a little less energy in those areas.

When using room acoustic treatment you fix the problems where the source of the problems occurs, and that should in all circumstances (when that can be done) be the absolute first step to fix the problem, and obviously long before you reach for the EQ tool which is basically just a 2D tool trying the repair a three-dimensional room problem.

I'm sure you know all this. But calling room treatment "old fashion" indicates that you maybe think there are new modern ways of fixing the room decay times. :)

the non-sota was believed to be so is that when I applied my own, untreated gaming room with a pair of genelecs, not using any dip sswitches or EQ above 400hz, using the same smoothing (1/3) as @Torbachkristensen setup. that's how close the tonalitty of a pair of contempary speaker in a 1.2m (W) * 3m (L) gaming room built by concrete and literally figures and books or other crap just put around the speakers can go.
I'm not quite sure what you want to show with your comparisons between your Genelec computer setup, and Torbachkristensen's professionally treated studio setup. Tonality is just one single parameter among many, your setups will most likely not sound even remotely the same or similar.
 

Chrise36

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
858
Likes
276
well after all these debates I do think both sides have the same fact:

ATC are good/ok, but it's only great/SOTA at the, say, good old 70s-80s or even 90s. they didn't go backwards from those era but also didn't move forward a lot like some other new/old brands did. So are they good? of course, a ton of really annoying sounding/measuring speakers literally litters the world, for @Torbachkristensen room, it of course is a well integrated room with all those old fashioned room treatments and design into a new room, it surely is good (or the designer will get killed starving).

IMO are ATC crap? surely not, are they STOA and champs most other pro solutions? Um~ almost surely not either. The whole pro thing is as stated before, completely irrelevant, going pro gear usually is just some more widely available/adopted brands, with performance enough to get the job done. look at those pro rack mounted amps measured here, I can't recall any one really competitive in performance to great consumer amps, but the fit in the rack, have the connectors needed, and performs good enough, with maybe a loud cooling fan which the whole thing is placed in another room so won't bother.

the non-sota was believed to be so is that when I applied my own, untreated gaming room with a pair of genelecs, not using any dip sswitches or EQ above 400hz, using the same smoothing (1/3) as @Torbachkristensen setup. that's how close the tonalitty of a pair of contempary speaker in a 1.2m (W) * 3m (L) gaming room built by concrete and literally figures and books or other crap just put around the speakers can go.

View attachment 225497
The problem is not that ATC is SOTA which is not just taken into account that even diyers managed to build better speakers using their driver the problem is other manufactures are considered SOTA just because they use DSP while their drivers are of unknown quality. How many drivers by genelec or KH have you seen measured independently? What about their amps and their dsp/dac how do these perform?
 

goat76

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
553
Likes
485
I have no idea where he's gotten thsi idea. Even at Gearspace there's plenty of people who hate ATCs.
It's maybe more like "repeating misinformation until it's considered to be the truth"?
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
712
Likes
508
Free-standing ATC monitor in a heavily treated room:

View attachment 224981



Seems like the passive crossover network needs some reworking on this set. One would never know unless measurements/inspections are performed regularly.

Let me guess: is it standmount monitor over hard floor with bass trapping in corners?
Generally looks like my hifi room with big standmounts. Especially dip 100-300 hz.
It's not about ATC at all...
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
2,568
Likes
1,932
Are not the Genelec eq'd from the manufacturer? Btw their fr looks like a w and the ATC harman(ish) while most believe and accuse ATC of the opposite go figure...
No, these are analogue genelec 8030 which is not eqed in factory, the harmonise FR below 200 is my own EQ and subwoofer integration. Thus the upper FR wiggle or unevenness is the key, a ATC in heavily treated room vs untreated gaming desk in neutrality is the thing
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
2,568
Likes
1,932
The problem is not that ATC is SOTA which is not just taken into account that even diyers managed to build better speakers using their driver the problem is other manufactures are considered SOTA just because they use DSP while their drivers are of unknown quality. How many drivers by genelec or KH have you seen measured independently? What about their amps and their dsp/dac how do these perform?
well no, the others are considered SOTA because their end product, have in full spin measurements showing all of these

1) neutral anechoic within it's FR range
2) even directivity, be it with waveguide in tweeter or others or just a coaxial (don't dismiss wave guide, ATC HAVE it tin their mid dome)
3) low distortion within it's FR range, or for small ones, above the mid bass range.

A driver alone is irrelevant, overall distortion comes from various factors, and overdriven/use beyond it's "comfort zone" being the most obvious reason.

if ATC is just that, it is a SOTA driver manufacturer, not speaker manufacturer. period
 

Chrise36

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
858
Likes
276
well no, the others are considered SOTA because their end product, have in full spin measurements showing all of these

1) neutral anechoic within it's FR range
2) even directivity, be it with waveguide in tweeter or others or just a coaxial (don't dismiss wave guide, ATC HAVE it tin their mid dome)
3) low distortion within it's FR range, or for small ones, above the mid bass range.

A driver alone is irrelevant, overall distortion comes from various factors, and overdriven/use beyond it's "comfort zone" being the most obvious reason.

if ATC is just that, it is a SOTA driver manufacturer, not speaker manufacturer. period
How do you know it is low audible distortion if you have not seen IMD? Is directivity more important than SINAD or DSP artifacts? So much obsession with directivity ignoring other significant parameters what makes you think even directivity alone makes a speaker sound good look at Erins review of the Kii does the tweeter sound good? Not from what i heard.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
2,568
Likes
1,932
How do you know it is low audible distortion if you have not seen IMD? Is directivity more important than SINAD or DSP artifacts? So much obsession with directivity ignoring other significant parameters what makes you think even directivity alone makes a speaker sound good look at Erins review of the Kii does the tweeter sound good? Not from what i heard.
distortion is given in the % in Amirm and Erin's measurement, with low distortion AND good directivity it is good, with Kii, I did tried once in a showroom, much better compared to SCM50. it's way better, but of course, it can be the room, or just that I listen to lower volume (I think avg was like 70-75 before my ears gets annoyingly hurt from any speaker). mind you for myself, STOA can be passive, example is KEF blade one meta.
 

Chrise36

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
858
Likes
276
distortion is given in the % in Amirm and Erin's measurement, with low distortion AND good directivity it is good, with Kii, I did tried once in a showroom, much better compared to SCM50. it's way better, but of course, it can be the room, or just that I listen to lower volume (I think avg was like 70-75 before my ears gets annoyingly hurt from any speaker). mind you for myself, STOA can be passive, example is KEF blade one meta.
A percentage of that is IMD which is different for every speaker and it is the worse kind of distortion audibly. An analogue design is much preferable to me passive or active if the active would be as transparent.
 
Top Bottom