ATC speakers / Monitors

[goat76]

You are comparing HUGE ATC’s at a much higher price point to the relatively small 8C’s.

The 8c’s are well capable of producing “dynamic” sound, from this review (https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/):

Subjectively speaking, the maximum output SPL was approximately 100dB at the main listening position (4 meters away) for the pair of speakers playing full range (20Hz to 20kHz). Above this volume, I felt a bit apprehensive pushing the speaker further (I don’t own it and it isn’t cheap). 100dB full range at 4 meters is very loud.

And “build quality” of the 8C is superb. Yes, it does not have a HUGE cabinet, because it uses smarter ways to produce sound. The ATC looks (and is) a speaker from the 70s.

And your point of a treated room has nothing to do with the speakers.

Sadly, I suspect Torbach is no longer allowed to reply to this thread if I'm not misinterpreting the moderator comment above.

I'm sure the 8C's are great speakers, Torbach just prefers another pair of speakers.

 

[Da cynics]

Why is a speaker that is likely to be less than excellent at controlling directivity and suppressing diffraction so attractive? I would like to hear scientific reasoning as to why it is not a psychological factor. That would be a step forward from the enforcement of the factors we know so far.

 

[Ilkless]

Why is a speaker that is likely to be less than excellent at controlling directivity and suppressing diffraction so attractive? I would like to hear scientific reasoning as to why it is not a psychological factor. That would be a step forward from the enforcement of the factors we know so far.

Because its somehow both mystical and arcane, yet also empirical and engineering driven. The ATC/Harbeth/Chord crowd are the best at using rhetoric that superficially resembles empirical observations, but when challenged on these observations with evidence, they retreat back to ATCs having some unquantifiable magic design that's more than the sum of its parts. And at the same time, that every part of the design that is out of date, is an intentional stroke of genius to resist fads and gimmicks and that ATC is some last bastion of purity in acoustic engineering.

Tiresome to see people trying to have their subjective cake and eat it too. I would rather hear of colour and tonal density from Devore or some other unabashedly mystical speaker than speakers from a brand and followers too willing to fall back on subjective waffle when it's claims of engineering-led design are challenged and refuted.


Edit:
On some level they recognise that the supposedly purist design is being threatened. And with good reason, which comforts me.

 

[maverickronin]

Second, do you really believe that professionals choose things to make them feel special about themselves? Do accountants choose accounting software to make themselves feel special, or do they choose what does the job best? Cinema DPs and their lenses? Plumbers? Electricians? And so on ...

I have zero musical talent and have never been involved in music production but I can say that professionals in any field aren't any more immune to basic human nature than non-professionals. Cinema is the only comparable example in your list as it's the only other art. All the others are far more empirical in their results. And even visual arts are far easier to quantify than audio because sound is so much more ephemeral that sight.

You can display a static image on a screen and easily examine and calibrate it. You can step through a video frame by frame. You can literally point out the differences on screen to another person. It takes much more attachment to a position for a person to deny what's starting them in the face like that. There is no equivalent to that in audio and makes it easier for person's beliefs to become divorced from reality. The stimulus comes and goes. It can be measured very precisely, but those measurements don't intuitively map to what a human perceives.

And even for much more empirical trades professionals still have favorite tools and habits. They are used to a particular software package and don't want to switch, they have favorite hand tools, they have a customary way of structuring their code, etc.

There's also the fact that enough skill will get excellent results even with substandard tools.

 

[Purité Audio]

Re dealer margins, speakers boutique you might get 60%, traditionally discount was split 40/20 between the retailer and the distributor.
Pro still you are fortunate with 25% some prices I see are my cost plus vat , either loss leaders or economy of scale Thomann for example.
Boutique cables have wonderful margins why they are so popular!
Keith

 

[DSJR]

‘mastering using ATC, that’s why most music are… bad recordings’…oh really, this mass hysteria over ATC in studios for 30 years with no logical justification has caused decades of bad recordings?

This is sounding like a conspiracy! Evil mix/mastering engineers, studio operators in league with ATC to sabotage music Quality.

Mastering/remastering over here is often done on B&W N800 models... ATC's usually were used for mixing... One chap did however use SCM100A's and his masterings usually sounded great to me...

 

[goat76]

Mastering/remastering over here is often done on B&W N800 models... ATC's usually were used for mixing... One chap did however use SCM100A's and his masterings usually sounded great to me...

When mastering engineers have a new studio built, they usually listen to a lot of music for a long time until they know the room and the system. If well-known reference material sounds right on the system and they constantly check the mixes with those targets, the end result will usually be good.

 

[YSC]

When mastering engineers have a new studio built, they usually listen to a lot of music for a long time until they know the room and the system. If well-known reference material sounds right on the system and they constantly check the mixes with those targets, the end result will usually be good.

And when you are using a specific coloured system with a house sound (poor directivity or certain common FR imperfection etc.) the music mixed by the same equipment of course will sound the best (or right) then someone using another system

 

[goat76]

And when you are using a specific coloured system with a house sound (poor directivity or certain common FR imperfection etc.) the music mixed by the same equipment of course will sound the best (or right) then someone using another system

I think you must have missed the thing I said about constantly checking the mixes with well-known reference material. Well-known reference material is of course something you already know is a good mix that you know sounds good on other good systems, and if your own mix sound close to that target it will also sound good on those other systems.

You see, the reference material is the constant factor in the equation.

 

[YSC]

I think you must have missed the thing I said about constantly checking the mixes with well-known reference material. Well-known reference material is of course something you already know is a good mix that you know sounds good on other good systems, and if your own mix sound close to that target it will also sound good on those other systems.

You see, the reference material is the constant factor in the equation.

Mastering/remastering over here is often done on B&W N800 models... ATC's usually were used for mixing... One chap did however use SCM100A's and his masterings usually sounded great to me...

actually I was trying to reply DSJR's post.

For reference material, sure, every industry need those calibrating materials, but then, you know.. doesn't show how the ATC is a top pick due to it's speaker being superior.. just... it's a choice, with big discount, and industry know it works to get the job done since 70s.

 

[Chrise36]

@

Measurements have been provided to show what a pro install can do - just show me 1 single freestanding speaker measurement that can supply that kind of waterfall plot and LF response at LP in-room. Until then, maybe you should lay off the childish unsubstantiated accusations.

Out of curiosity can you record any sweeps or music and upload it somewhere?

 

[Inner Space]

And even for much more empirical trades professionals still have favorite tools and habits. They are used to a particular software package and don't want to switch, they have favorite hand tools, they have a customary way of structuring their code, etc.

I agree completely - comfort and familiarity drive a lot of decisions, and why not? But the commenter said professionals choose things to make them feel special about themselves, as if seeking status in a psychological way, which is patently absurd.

Cinema is the only comparable example in your list as it's the only other art. All the others are far more empirical in their results.

I judge my own results in an entirely empirical, numbers-based way - sales. If certain gear in certain rooms makes more commercially attractive product, I'm all over it. Nothing to do with making myself feel special. That's the real difference between pro and domestic - in the pro world, stakes are high; at home, stakes are nonexistent.

 

[DSJR]

actually I was trying to reply DSJR's post.

For reference material, sure, every industry need those calibrating materials, but then, you know.. doesn't show how the ATC is a top pick due to it's speaker being superior.. just... it's a choice, with big discount, and industry know it works to get the job done since 70s.

I don't believe ATC's factory margins or turnover were enough to provide them FOR FREE as I know one brand did or does (promotion gets money back). They just have a pretty consistent sound in a wide variety of rooms (a massive selling point for domestic users - don't knock it), although it was said even in my day that a US timber frame room is both larger and more bass-absorbent than the brick/concrete/plaster horrors our rooms often are over here..

 

[YSC]

I don't believe ATC's factory margins or turnover were enough to provide them FOR FREE as I know one brand did or does (promotion gets money back). They just have a pretty consistent sound in a wide variety of rooms (a massive selling point for domestic users - don't knock it), although it was said even in my day that a US timber frame room is both larger and more bass-absorbent than the brick/concrete/plaster horrors our rooms often are over here..

well... for a speaker to be consistent sounding in a wide variety of rooms, it have to... have as consistant directivity to do so, of course, most rooms affect bass frequencies most, and if the home oriented products are lacking in bass, it's less affected by room

 

[tw99]

I agree completely - comfort and familiarity drive a lot of decisions, and why not? But the commenter said professionals choose things to make them feel special about themselves, as if seeking status in a psychological way, which is patently absurd.

I judge my own results in an entirely empirical, numbers-based way - sales. If certain gear in certain rooms makes more commercially attractive product, I'm all over it. Nothing to do with making myself feel special. That's the real difference between pro and domestic - in the pro world, stakes are high; at home, stakes are nonexistent.

I agree.

ATC has a good reputation in the Pro audio world, and you have to ask why that persists given the difficult economics of Pro audio. If they weren't delivering value to the Pros, then they wouldn't be selling any more, simple as that. So they cannot be as appalling in this context as @Ilkless claims, or every studio in the world would just be installing Genelecs instead.

When it comes to home audio, then as part of the marketing message, ATC certainly take advantage of their Pro history. Every audio company in the world also says that their product is "the best" in one way or another, so they're not doing anything different to anyone else there. It's clear to everyone that their technology is not up to date, but they're honest about what they do and don't do, and their products are very well engineered and manufactured for what they are.

Again, if they're really as bad as Ilkless maintains, why do their 20-25 year old speakers hold their value so well ? If you compare a technically leading design of a similar price from 20-25 years ago such as Meridian 5000s, they haven't done as well in terms of value preservation. Any bets on the relative value of ATC 50As vs D&D 8c's in 10 years time ?

To be clear, I am not claiming that ATC make the best speakers in the world. I am just saying that their value proposition can still be good, on objective terms, even today.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I agree.

ATC has a good reputation in the Pro audio world, and you have to ask why that persists given the difficult economics of Pro audio. If they weren't delivering value to the Pros, then they wouldn't be selling any more, simple as that. So they cannot be as appalling in this context as @Ilkless claims, or every studio in the world would just be installing Genelecs instead.

When it comes to home audio, then as part of the marketing message, ATC certainly take advantage of their Pro history. Every audio company in the world also says that their product is "the best" in one way or another, so they're not doing anything different to anyone else there. It's clear to everyone that their technology is not up to date, but they're honest about what they do and don't do, and their products are very well engineered and manufactured for what they are.

Again, if they're really as bad as Ilkless maintains, why do their 20-25 year old speakers hold their value so well ? If you compare a technically leading design of a similar price from 20-25 years ago such as Meridian 5000s, they haven't done as well in terms of value preservation. Any bets on the relative value of ATC 50As vs D&D 8c's in 10 years time ?

To be clear, I am not claiming that ATC make the best speakers in the world. I am just saying that their value proposition can still be good, on objective terms, even today.

For the same reason a iphone gets better re sale than samsungs.. The name meridian doesnt have any magic, no good re sale..

 

[maverickronin]

I agree completely - comfort and familiarity drive a lot of decisions, and why not? But the commenter said professionals choose things to make them feel special about themselves, as if seeking status in a psychological way, which is patently absurd.

I doubt @Ilkless means that's the conscious reason they are deciding on something, as if they were trying on clothes and seeing what what they looked best in, but rather that buying into the "story" about a brand is a very strong subconscious influence that also retroactively strengthens itself to justify the past decision.

I could be reading too much into him though...

I judge my own results in an entirely empirical, numbers-based way - sales. If certain gear in certain rooms makes more commercially attractive product, I'm all over it. Nothing to do with making myself feel special. That's the real difference between pro and domestic - in the pro world, stakes are high; at home, stakes are nonexistent.

Are you talking about final sales to the consumer? How could you possibly determine the cause of the sales?

 

[Inner Space]

Are you talking about final sales to the consumer? How could you possibly determine the cause of the sales?

I can't, in any meaningful sense, except that of course almost all sales are about the performer or the material or both. Nothing to do with backroom people. But all those people know deep down whether it's a good product, and they know deep down whether they contributed. If they did a good job, they're entitled to a tiny fraction of the credit. (Sometimes they know for sure - their effect or edit starts every video.) So they see overall sales as a plausible metric for their own fractional contribution. The comment was a response to your implication that e.g. accounting was far more empirical than cinema or the music business. Honestly, I think it's the other way around.

 

[dfuller]

I think you've made all the points you're going to make in this thread.

While you're at it, could you tell another few users to maybe stop effectively calling people who own ATCs stupid?

 

[BDWoody]

While you're at it, could you tell another few users to maybe stop effectively calling people who own ATCs stupid?

Maybe a general reset on the antagonism would be good all around.

I'll remove the thread ban for @Torbachkristensen as well, but will ask if we can please dial the snark back a bit.