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are there differences in AVR surround sound/dsp capability through better ,,logic/processing''?

peng

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You can listen to the recordings of the Anthem and Trinnov.
Of course, but a) you are at their mercy, in terms of how they set up the comparisons, b) the way they described the differences often seemed over the top, and naturally highly subjective, c) they seemed to always say the more expensive, separates, semi separates sounded much better than the less expensive, and/or avrs regardless of what the specs and measurements might indicate. After watching a few, I consider those kind of reviews useless. Those guys appear to have lack of technical knowledge but have the ability to imagine lots of things, clearly very prone to hearsay and Placebo.

I would stick with ASR and Audioholics reviews that include bench tests. Even Stereophile's are way better than those Youtubers mentioned. If you trust what they said, or did, then they are good for you, but for me, no thanks.
 

hmt

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He has binaural recordings - you can get a sense for the differences in surround sound.
No you can't. Period. Pleas stop making judgements about sound quality via some binaural recordings.
 

techsamurai

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No you can't. Period. Pleas stop making judgements about sound quality via some binaural recordings.

I'm beginning to understand why most of you need measurements to decide if equipment is good and whether something is actually music. :)

All conversations seem to go like this

Me: "I watched the Unforgiven yesterday and I was surprised how deep Eastwood's voice is"
ASR member: "How do you know it was Clint Eastwood?"
Me: "It sounded like him"
ASR member: "That's your opinion"
Me: "He's credited in the movie"
ASR member: "Did you take a measurement and compare that to Clint's actual voice to confirm it?"
Me: "No, but I've heard his voice in other movies"
ASR member: "Exactly my point! It's all subjective. It could be anyone but Clint Eastwood"
Me: "I called Clint Eastwood and he confirmed that it was his voice. I also checked with Morgan Freeman"
ASR member: "That's his opinion! How do you know that was Morgan Freeman?"
 

GXAlan

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He specifically says that even when sonys 360 spatial mapping is disabled the 7000ES is better in creating believable surround sound compared to the marantz.

One possible explanation would be that the sony room correction process is thorough and you still benefit form it even if the 360 ,,upmixer'' is disabled.

but maybe not. I am really curious about his...what do yous think?

+1 on subjective impressions always being subject to bias.

BUT

Sony has D.C.A.C. EX which is their 2D room correction based upon a stereo microphone (most receivers use mono microphones). This lets Sony know the position of the speakers in terms of angles from the listening position.

That is, Sony knows the difference between LCR speakers in proper positions, lined shoulder to shoulder, or inappropriately at 12, 9 and 3 o’clock. Other systems do not.

The 360 sound mapping is an added processing on top of DCAC EX which has 3D microphone measurements by using a microphone stand and measuring a single position with 4 calibrated positions.

I still stand by my statements that Sony and Yamaha along with Trinnov are the best for speakers in less ideal positions. I have owned all three (Trinnov being the cheaper Sherwood R972 generation). I currently use Dirac/HTP-1 because of how I have set up my speakers.
 

GXAlan

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I'm beginning to understand why most of you need measurements to decide if equipment is good and whether something is actually music. :)

To be fair, I think you can say “some of you” rather than “most.” Not everyone who reads, posts…
 

hmt

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I'm beginning to understand why most of you need measurements to decide if equipment is good and whether something is actually music. :)

All conversations seem to go like this

Me: "I watched the Unforgiven yesterday and I was surprised how deep Eastwood's voice is"
ASR member: "How do you know it was Clint Eastwood?"
Me: "It sounded like him"
ASR member: "That's your opinion"
Me: "He's credited in the movie"
ASR member: "Did you take a measurement and compare that to Clint's actual voice to confirm it?"
Me: "No, but I've heard his voice in other movies"
ASR member: "Exactly my point! It's all subjective. It could be anyone but Clint Eastwood"
Me: "I called Clint Eastwood and he confirmed that it was his voice. I also checked with Morgan Freeman"
ASR member: "That's his opinion! How do you know that was Morgan Freeman?"

That strawman doesn't impress me. Credits in a movie are credible proof that someone played in a movie. That's basically why they are called credits.
Some "binaural" recording of a system of some random youtuber listened to with some random headphones on some random head doesn't mean a thing. Not credible. Not the same thing.
 

hmt

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+1 on subjective impressions always being subject to bias.

BUT

Sony has D.C.A.C. EX which is their 2D room correction based upon a stereo microphone (most receivers use mono microphones). This lets Sony know the position of the speakers in terms of angles from the listening position.

That is, Sony knows the difference between LCR speakers in proper positions, lined shoulder to shoulder, or inappropriately at 12, 9 and 3 o’clock. Other systems do not.

The 360 sound mapping is an added processing on top of DCAC EX which has 3D microphone measurements by using a microphone stand and measuring a single position with 4 calibrated positions.

I still stand by my statements that Sony and Yamaha along with Trinnov are the best for speakers in less ideal positions. I have owned all three (Trinnov being the cheaper Sherwood R972 generation). I currently use Dirac/HTP-1 because of how I have set up my speakers.
Point is that this youtuber claims that even without enabling this sort of correction the Sony sound better.
 

Barrelhouse Solly

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I'm beginning to understand why most of you need measurements to decide if equipment is good and whether something is actually music. :)

All conversations seem to go like this

Me: "I watched the Unforgiven yesterday and I was surprised how deep Eastwood's voice is"
ASR member: "How do you know it was Clint Eastwood?"
Me: "It sounded like him"
ASR member: "That's your opinion"
Me: "He's credited in the movie"
ASR member: "Did you take a measurement and compare that to Clint's actual voice to confirm it?"
Me: "No, but I've heard his voice in other movies"
ASR member: "Exactly my point! It's all subjective. It could be anyone but Clint Eastwood"
Me: "I called Clint Eastwood and he confirmed that it was his voice. I also checked with Morgan Freeman"
ASR member: "That's his opinion! How do you know that was Morgan Freeman?"
Everyone has subjective sound preferences. Then there's the Fletcher-Munson curve. That's one reason why there are equalizers and DSP. Measurements are the best decision support tool because they show how accurately each device in the chain reproduces its input. What you do with the final output is up to you.
 

GXAlan

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Point is that this youtuber claims that even without enabling this sort of correction the Sony sound better.

DCAC EX is separate from the 360 sound processing. When you have the unit configured for 360 SS, going in and out of the nodes means you are choosing between

DCAC EX only
DCAC EX plus 360SS

Super confusing from a reviewer standpoint but Sony ES current and previous generation were designed for CI and being bullet proof for non-technical users so they make it hard to screw up into a mode that will break things.

I don’t have my ZA5000ES right now, (Previous gen). I think going pure direct disables distance and level trim, and for sure disables all bass management so you use it primarily for 2 ch music not movies. So “regular Dolby Atmos” is really with Sony’s DCAC EX still on.

DCAC EX is like Audyssey or Dirac, but like Yamaha YPAO, there is more emphasis on localization, again why they use multiple mics to “triangulate” source (though with two and four positions not three).
 

kemmler3D

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That's an interesting point because there are 3 high-end AVRs that are practically identical internally, namely:

Onkyo TX-RZ50
VSX-LX805
Integra 8.4

Visually, the main differences are the heatsink fins and the backpanel connectivity where some offer more XLR pre-outs.

I'm guessing they may use different DACs.

Does that mean they will sound identical?
If the DAC, amps, and all processing are the same, they should sound identical. You wouldn't expect two glasses of lemonade made with the same amounts of the same ingredients to taste different, right?

"Identical" is a pretty high bar and there are changes they could make that aren't obvious (tweaks to DSP, etc.) but yeah if the guts are the same the sound ought to be the same...
 

peng

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To be fair, I think you can say “some of you” rather than “most.” Not everyone who reads, posts…
I would say even that is grossly exaggerated, can almost call it untrue.. Do you really believe someone need to see measurements, to know "whether something is actually music", that seems too extreme, don't you think?
 

techsamurai

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If the DAC, amps, and all processing are the same, they should sound identical. You wouldn't expect two glasses of lemonade made with the same amounts of the same ingredients to taste different, right?

"Identical" is a pretty high bar and there are changes they could make that aren't obvious (tweaks to DSP, etc.) but yeah if the guts are the same the sound ought to be the same...

This reminds me of Starbucks and the fact that one person made a latte much better than all the other baristas there. I have no idea why but he clearly used the same milk, same coffee beans, same grinder, and same machine but the output was different and, in fact, only one old lady matched him at another place. I do recall my wife saying 'whoa, she's almost as good as that person'.
 

GXAlan

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I would say even that is grossly exaggerated, can almost call it untrue.. Do you really believe someone need to see measurements, to know "whether something is actually music", that seems too extreme, don't you think?

It's the internet -- some degree of exaggeration is par for the course.

We do see a lot of debates about the value of subjective reviews and I think "whether something is actually music" is more about whether something sounds good/bad as opposed to a literal interpretation of music vs. noise.
 

kemmler3D

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This reminds me of Starbucks and the fact that one person made a latte much better than all the other baristas there. I have no idea why but he clearly used the same milk, same coffee beans, same grinder, and same machine but the output was different and, in fact, only one old lady matched him at another place. I do recall my wife saying 'whoa, she's almost as good as that person'.
Well, when it comes to DSP and especially upmixing, even using the same hardware and software, there are subjective choices to be made. I would be surprised if two AVRs that didn't have all DSP disabled would be configured identically if you're actually doing something audible in the first place.
 
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thanks a lot for the discussion, i appreciate it!

i figured too that the differences the reviewer heard between the sony and the marantz might be becuase he used different room correction for each. but maybe its also the ,,base'' proccesing.

@GXAlan relly interesting, thanks a lot! do you have any thoughts on auro 3d plus dirac comapred to sonys surround suit?

i am currently debating between a sony az5000es or going with a auro 3d set up with a denon x4800h with dirac. i wonder what would be better surround sound wise since i mainly game and watch movies. due to my furniture and a very close seating position to a 77 sony oled i have trouble intsalling/getting a center channel right and the sony would give me some options (center sync/center lift) to try to solve this. one big problem with the sony is though that they are not avaible in europe and importing is really expensive.
 

Chrispy

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thanks a lot for the discussion, i appreciate it!

i figured too that the differences the reviewer heard between the sony and the marantz might be becuase he used different room correction for each. but maybe its also the ,,base'' proccesing.

@GXAlan relly interesting, thanks a lot! do you have any thoughts on auro 3d plus dirac comapred to sonys surround suit?

i am currently debating between a sony az5000es or going with a auro 3d set up with a denon x4800h with dirac. i wonder what would be better surround sound wise since i mainly game and watch movies. due to my furniture and a very close seating position to a 77 sony oled i have trouble intsalling/getting a center channel right and the sony would give me some options (center sync/center lift) to try to solve this. one big problem with the sony is though that they are not avaible in europe and importing is really expensive.
Or just maybe, and what a revelation this might be, the reviewer had ulterior motives for the review/gear!
 

techsamurai

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Or just maybe, and what a revelation this might be, the reviewer had ulterior motives for the review/gear!

But his reviews are quite precise. He reviewed the speakers I've owned for 15 years now and he was on point. In fact, in his review he compared them to another speaker that's 4-5 times more expensive and another reviewer said the exact same thing.

I've noticed that his statements of the Onkyo RZ70 vs the Marantz Cinema40 mirrored my own impressions of the RZ50 vs the 8002 and were also reflected in past reviews of Onkyos vs my Marantz AVRs which I found entertaining.

What I'm saying is that companies retain their signature sound model-to-model making small changes so an Onkyo from 15 years ago will have the same characteristics as a modern Onkyo. You're not going to pick up an Onkyo and find that it sounds like a Sugden.
 

Chrispy

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But his reviews are quite precise. He reviewed the speakers I've owned for 15 years now and he was on point. In fact, in his review he compared them to another speaker that's 4-5 times more expensive and another reviewer said the exact same thing.

I've noticed that his statements of the Onkyo RZ70 vs the Marantz Cinema40 mirrored my own impressions of the RZ50 vs the 8002 and were also reflected in past reviews of Onkyos vs my Marantz AVRs which I found entertaining.

What I'm saying is that companies retain their signature sound model-to-model making small changes so an Onkyo from 15 years ago will have the same characteristics as a modern Onkyo. You're not going to pick up an Onkyo and find that it sounds like a Sugden.
What's a Sugden sound like? New brand to me, but they must sound better because they're "high end"? Reviewers with subjective descriptions you agree with....meh, that's not much to go on. I know, you're an exceptional golden ear type with tremendous ability to compare electronics....especially brands as a whole. That I find entertaining....
 
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