Apple is forced to allow installation of 3rd party Apps (outside of their official store) in the EU

[bluefuzz]

What part of the legislation does Google not like given that they already allow side loading?

As noted above Google has been trying to make sideloading as difficult as possible for years without actually making it impossible. Re. some US legislation. With regard to the EU initiatives the Digital Markets Act deals with whole host of issues with 'Big Tech'. Sideloading is just a small part of it.

 

[Ron Texas]

I'm going to give this EU legislation my Good Housekeeping seal of disapproval and leave. It's turning into a pile on, and the real answer to this is political.

 

[bluefuzz]

the real answer to this is political

The real answer to pretty much anything can be construed as political if you try hard enough. There are no doubt people who could make an argument for vinyl vs. digital as a political statement. But sometimes even massive supragovernmental institutions can do something sensible that benefits everyone regardless of political stripe. And by contrast not everything Apple or Google do is necessarily evil even though they do seem to do their darndest to hide that fact ...

 

[blueone]

I don't care about everyone else's systems.

I'd much rather force the general public learn about the tech they are using, and how to protect themselves. Sadly the goal of many tech sales and marketing types is to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

The general public is the lowest common denominator, and thinking the average non-technical person is going to learn enough about the technical details of their computing products is unrealistic. Also, you can be technical about a lot of areas and still be ignorant of computer and network security.

I've watched numerous people at work have complete meltdowns, because the fobs battery died, and they are oblivious to the fact the fob contains an actual key. The last peer I helped was a mid 30's woman who worked in sales. I walked out to go home, and there she was crying and furiously clicking the fob and yanking on the door handle. I walked up and asked what the problem was, and she said it won't open. I said can I see your keys? she hesitated for a moment, but then gave them to me. I took the key out of the fob to open the door, and then helped her to find the emergency start fob dock (or whatever its called) in her car, so she could start it. I even popped the fob open to show her what kind of battery she needed. The entire time she had a bewildered look on her face!

You must work in a place with a lot of technology-adverse people.

Imo, the above is a good example of what is wrong with Apple and a lot of other tech companies. They keep their customers blissfully ignorant and complacent. It doesn't help that a none trivial segment of the population want it this way. If/when the walled gardened comes down it will be a good learning experience for some people, and yes some people will have to learn the hard way.

I think your position on security is unrealistic, naive, and also arrogant. I completely agree with Apple on building on a more sound default security foundation than on making it the users' problem and their responsibility to understand the limitations of a fully open environment. If they don't like Apple's design decisions, they can always get an Android phone, which is about 80% of the market outside of China.

 

[DLS79]

I think your position on security is unrealistic, naive, and also arrogant. I completely agree with Apple on building on a more sound default security foundation than on making it the users' problem and their responsibility to understand the limitations of a fully open environment. If they don't like Apple's design decisions, they can always get an Android phone, which is about 80% of the market outside of China.

I think it's naive to believe Apple is doing it for any reason other than it's own financial gain!

 

[poxymoron]

I see this as forcing a private business to meet the political goals of a regulator. Only a few developers will benefit. It's wishful thinking to say more apps will be available. It's going to be a real mess when people start complaining about malware and fraud. Why should I worry. Europe is struggling to keep the lights on with their climate goals and the cut off of Russian natural gas.

I don't want to go off topic but

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europes-energy-crisis-is-over-kemp-2023-11-28/

 

[sweetchaos]

Please keep the discussion related to the topic at hand, related to the technological change that's coming soon to the Apple iOS system.

I really don't want to see a political discussion.

 

[sweetchaos]

Just now, having looked Apple's documentation (which I've missed previously):

Using alternative browser engines in the European Union - Support - Apple Developer

developer.apple.com

I stand corrected....
Other rendering engines, other than WebKit is coming to iOS 17.4.
Which is excellent news, since iOS users will finally have real options for web browsers.

Current iOS browsers are very much the same, all using WebKit engine, which limits their ability to do a lot of functions.

Here's a great example.
Current AdGuard for iOS (from Apple Store) can only perform both basic and cosmetic filtering.
It cannot do HTML filtering. HTML filtering is where AdGuard will be able to alter HTML code of the page, before it's loaded. This is a more advanced version that allows for complex filtering rules that's currently not possible with current WebKit rendering engine.

So the next questions becomes....Which applications or extensions support HTML filtering using AdGuard products?

How to create your own ad filters | AdGuard Knowledge Base

In this article, we explain how to write custom filtering rules for use in AdGuard products. To test your rules, you can download the AdGuard app

adguard.com

Currently supported on:
1. adguard for windows (of course, since the desktop OS can do anything)
2. adguard for mac (of course, since the desktop OS can do anything)
3. adguard for android (this is the advantage of android over the ios)
4. adguard browser extension for firefox (this is an advantage that firefox has over other browsers)

The other program that does HTML filtering is uBlock Origin.

The fact that your iPhone will be able to use another rendering engine, allows for adguard (or ublock origin for example), to develop an app for these 3rd party browsers (that will be able to be side-loaded).
That's a huge win for anyone using an iPhone, since this technology is currently not available for iOS (only for Android).

This increases the security and privacy of your web browser for iOS, which is a win for everyone.

 

[blueone]

I think it's naive to believe Apple is doing it for any reason other than it's own financial gain!

If you are saying that Apple provides better security because they think they charge a premium for it, I agree. Apple also takes financial advantage of their walled garden wherever they can, like charging a commission for App Store sales (15% or 30%), and (trying) to charge an additional premium for handling the payment. That's what private companies do; they try to maximize their profit. Go to the Porsche corporate website and do a build on a 911. You pay thousands extra for features standard on a Kia. Premium products cost more.

 

[DLS79]

If you are saying that Apple provides better security because they think they charge a premium for it, I agree. Apple also takes financial advantage of their walled garden wherever they can, like charging a commission for App Store sales (15% or 30%), and (trying) to charge an additional premium for handling the payment. That's what private companies do; they try to maximize their profit. Go to the Porsche corporate website and do a build on a 911. You pay thousands extra for features standard on a Kia. Premium products cost more.

No I'm saying imo the walled garden exist so they can charge app developers 30%. I don't think apple gives two hoots about their customer security, beyond being able to claim they do for sales and marketing purposes.

some new info.

Here’s the new Apple tax every developer is going to hate

50 cents is the new 30 percent.

www.theverge.com

 

[maverickronin]

No I'm saying imo the walled garden exist so they can charge app developers 30%. I don't think apple gives two hoots about their customer security, beyond being able to claim they do for sales and marketing purposes.

some new info.

This.

It's essentially the same business model as video game consoles.

Maybe Europeans will get to sideload software on their Playstations and Xboxes next.

 

[blueone]

No I'm saying imo the walled garden exist so they can charge app developers 30%. I don't think apple gives two hoots about their customer security, beyond being able to claim they do for sales and marketing purposes.

some new info.

Here’s the new Apple tax every developer is going to hate

50 cents is the new 30 percent.

www.theverge.com

You're so cynical. Apple has a review process for apps submitted for inclusion in the app store, and it doesn't look cheap to implement.

App Review - App Store - Apple Developer

Learn about the technical, content, and design criteria used to review apps submitted to the App Store.

developer.apple.com

Apple cares about customer security because their customers value safety. It's as simple as that.

 

[DLS79]

You're so cynical. Apple has a review process for apps submitted for inclusion in the app store, and it doesn't look cheap to implement.

App Review - App Store - Apple Developer

Learn about the technical, content, and design criteria used to review apps submitted to the App Store.

developer.apple.com

Apple cares about customer security because their customers value safety. It's as simple as that.

You know about batterygate right?

 

[jhwalker]

You know about batterygate right?

Where they recoded their OS to avoid catastrophic battery failure? Yes.

 

[Galliardist]

I don't care about everyone else's systems.

I'd much rather force the general public learn about the tech they are using, and how to protect themselves. Sadly the goal of many tech sales and marketing types is to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

A somewhat amusing (imo) analogy are people who are overly reliant on their car's fob.

I've watched numerous people at work have complete meltdowns, because the fobs battery died, and they are oblivious to the fact the fob contains an actual key. The last peer I helped was a mid 30's woman who worked in sales. I walked out to go home, and there she was crying and furiously clicking the fob and yanking on the door handle. I walked up and asked what the problem was, and she said it won't open. I said can I see your keys? she hesitated for a moment, but then gave them to me. I took the key out of the fob to open the door, and then helped her to find the emergency start fob dock (or whatever its called) in her car, so she could start it. I even popped the fob open to show her what kind of battery she needed. The entire time she had a bewildered look on her face!

Imo, the above is a good example of what is wrong with Apple and a lot of other tech companies. They keep their customers blissfully ignorant and complacent. It doesn't help that a none trivial segment of the population want it this way. If/when the walled gardened comes down it will be a good learning experience for some people, and yes some people will have to learn the hard way.

However, it’s precisely because I understand and see the effects and issues involved with using technology on a daily basis, that I prefer to have a product in my normal life that has the garden wall and a minimum degree of protection.

Oh, and it's a "free internet" that all of your devices are connected to - one of the rules is that you have to care about everyone else's systems, because they WILL affect your use of the internet.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Here's a great example.
Current AdGuard for iOS (from Apple Store) can only perform both basic and cosmetic filtering.
It cannot do HTML filtering. HTML filtering is where AdGuard will be able to alter HTML code of the page, before it's loaded. This is a more advanced version that allows for complex filtering rules that's currently not possible with current WebKit rendering engine.

You keep repeating this, but it’s just false (like your assertion about Youtube players).

There are numerous ad blockers for iOS, and there are Safari add-ons for filtering malicious, dangerous or just plain annoying HTML content. I use a few of them to get rid of javascript that messes with page scrolling, shows sticky pop-ups and all sorts of other things. These work via a Safari API specifically created for these purposes.

There are also system-wide blocking apps that block traffic based on URL hostname or domain. It comes with a built-in blocklist of known bad stuff, and I also use it to block anything to do with Facebook.

 

[Koeitje]

You keep repeating this, but it’s just false (like your assertion about Youtube players).

There are numerous ad blockers for iOS, and there are Safari add-ons for filtering malicious, dangerous or just plain annoying HTML content. I use a few of them to get rid of javascript that messes with page scrolling, shows sticky pop-ups and all sorts of other things. These work via a Safari API specifically created for these purposes.

There are also system-wide blocking apps that block traffic based on URL hostname or domain. It comes with a built-in blocklist of known bad stuff, and I also use it to block anything to do with Facebook.

But what if you don't want to use Safari?

 

[Galliardist]

This.

It's essentially the same business model as video game consoles.

Maybe Europeans will get to sideload software on their Playstations and Xboxes next.

And smart TVs, and audio streamers, NAS, and internet fridges. The difference though is that smartphones and desktop computers are general purpose devices, and therefore a different market to anything that is dedicated to a particular purpose, I guess.

These laws might make dedicated devices act as dedicated devices, though. I see XBox and such as also being general purpose in practice because they do more than just run games, so yes they might be next up for these rules.

 

[jhaider]

I'd much rather force the general public learn about the tech they are using, and how to protect themselves.

Such “free market” anarcho-capitalism has throughout history provided its highest benefits to thugs and scammers. Maybe let’s not help them to our data.

What you’re basically saying is, if a beast feasts on your bones it’s your fault for having bones in the first place and not having a big enough stick to scare the beast away.

A somewhat amusing (imo) analogy are people who are overly reliant on their car's fob.

What’s a car fob again? Sounds very last century.

OTOH, your car is a good reason to want your phone locked down. Should somebody be able to hack your phone and open your frunk? Summon your car?

It doesn't help that a none trivial segment of the population want it this way. If/when the walled gardened comes down it will be a good learning experience for some people, and yes some people will have to learn the hard way.

People have lives. They don’t want to deal with dumb shit if they don’t have to. And why should they? The same, incidentally, applies to audio.

 

[theREALdotnet]

But what if you don't want to use Safari?

Then you better hope your preferred browser offers similar features.