• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Anything better than Genelec?

Pearljam5000

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
1,058
Likes
1,014
#1
Which brand and/or any specific speaker / monitor model is better than Genelec and especially the Ones?
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
1,074
Likes
731
#2
Depends on what you count as better... non coaxial counted I instantly can think of Kii Three, D&D 8C and Mesanovic RTM10. these are all bookshelf sized speakers which goes full range and as flat as possible with DSP built in. but then cost a fortune and don't have the Ones coaxial imaging.

IMO the flatness once passed the 80x0 or even Focal shape level it don't really matters IRL, more like super cars 0-62 at 2.6 or 2.7 or even 3 sec kind of competition, what's important at this level of accuracy upward should the bass extension, listening window and how well they can counter the room modes.
 

Vintage57

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Messages
327
Likes
389
Location
Ontario, Canada
#3
Neumann’s IMO
 

thewas

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
2,523
Likes
5,454
#4
Which car/shirt/pizza brand or model is better than XYZ? :rolleyes:

Everything in the world is a compromise, only when you clearly define which criteria are important and which not a better or worse can be decided and even then its often unambiguous.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
46
Likes
32
#5
I am somewhat puzzled about the lack of phase linearity in most of Genelec´s monitors. Is there any one with linear phase besides the 8350? I think linear phase is more important than coaxial arrangement... The 8351 seems a step down from the 8350... It looks Neumann is ahead in this aspect with their Kh-750 and MA-1 "phase linearizers", and with the already linear Kh-80.
On the other hand, the phase issue can always be solved with Dirac. If you count with that, you can concentrate in other aspects of performance and the number of reference-level speakers is multiplied... (that is my current situation, I don´t know which route to take). :)
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
1,377
Likes
3,174
Location
Canada
#6
I am somewhat puzzled about the lack of phase linearity in most of Genelec´s monitors.
As far as I understand, there isn't really any research showing that phase linearity is particularly audible, let alone important. see: various statements.

The 8351 seems a step down from the 8350
There are no phase measurements of the 8351B available that I know of, and the 8351A is a different speaker.

That said, here are phase measurements of the 8351A, 8361A(same tweeter/mid/amplifier as the 8351B, only the woofer is changed), and KH420. It does not seem to me that the 8361A/8351B do poorly on this measurement, regardless of its importance.

E: Additionally, IMD of the 8350 (vs 8361A) seems far worse in the midrange, as expected from a 2-way, and certainly I would be worried about that long before I look at phase.
 
Last edited:

EPC

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
80
Likes
9
#7
I am somewhat puzzled about the lack of phase linearity in most of Genelec´s monitors. Is there any one with linear phase besides the 8350? I think linear phase is more important than coaxial arrangement... The 8351 seems a step down from the 8350... It looks Neumann is ahead in this aspect with their Kh-750 and MA-1 "phase linearizers", and with the already linear Kh-80.
On the other hand, the phase issue can always be solved with Dirac. If you count with that, you can concentrate in other aspects of performance and the number of reference-level speakers is multiplied... (that is my current situation, I don´t know which route to take). :)
Can you elaborate on the phase issue with the Genelecs?
Stuck between getting the Genelec 8340 or going into the Neumann KH lineup...
Is there much difference between GML and MA-1? Are they both just corrective EQ curves?
 

FeddyLost

Active Member
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
226
Likes
119
#8
You must clarify terms of "being better".
If your priority is clear and fast lows, you might look at big ATC actives.
If you need phase linear system without delay, you can check out PSI.
If you need extreme clarity in mids and highs, you can listen for biggest stats that you can afford.
Genelecs are good, but they are nearfields monitors in principle, so they can't be used optimally in big halls.
There are lot of tools suitable for different cases.
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
3,204
#9
Hi

While I understand the Genelec love, one should be careful not to make a cult of it and eschew other worthy brands. Neumann comes to mind, their lineup is not fully with DSP but the designs are very sound and the products stellar performers. The KH 310 and another Neuman (KH80 ?) reviewed by Amir , were shown to be excellent. There are other more Livingroom-friendly and virtually full range speakers that one should consider: the Dutch and Dutch 8 C in particular seems to be one hell of speakers in real room situations. And there is the Kii 3 another purportedly superior products. We should not forget the Burchard lineup.

On this, I believe it would be wise that the people from Dutch and Dutch, Kii and Burchard made their products available to Amir, Erin, Napilopez and/or other knowledgeable people on this ASR forum for serious reviewing.
 

Hephaestus

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
181
Likes
334
Location
Rapture
#11
You must clarify terms of "being better".
If your priority is clear and fast lows, you might look at big ATC actives.
If you need phase linear system without delay, you can check out PSI.
If you need extreme clarity in mids and highs, you can listen for biggest stats that you can afford.
Genelecs are good, but they are nearfields monitors in principle, so they can't be used optimally in big halls.
There are lot of tools suitable for different cases.
Last time I checked Genelec product portfolio there was:

-Nearfield monitors
-Midfield monitors
-Main monitors
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
46
Likes
32
#12
GML doesn´t apply phase correction (well, I think it does to subwoofers, but that is not the point here). GML can´t tell to Genelec monitors to do something that is not already designed into those monitors, it only tells the speakers what settings to use (EQ, delay and level, I understand, please correct me if otherwise).
Neumann on the other hand, uses the Kh-750 to do the phase linearization of their analog speakers (Kh-120, Kh-310, Kh-420). MA-1 adds room correction (but doesn´t replace the Kh-750).
I guess phase linearity is not such a big deal if you listen mostly to processed music, but for natural acoustics (or for processed music that aspires to resemble natural acoustics, or to exploit human perception of natural acoustics) it makes very much sense to me. This regard for phase linearity seems to be shared by the engineers at Neumann, PSI Audio, Hedd or KS Digital, or by Sound on Sound reviews.
Then again, Dirac allows you to correct any speaker´s phase (also Genelecs :)), widening the options...
 

EPC

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
80
Likes
9
#13
Forgive my novice-ness...
But how does Neumann alter the phase alignment of its speaker?
I understand about crossovers and phase in a general sense, but what does the software actually change, and how will they affect the sonics?
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
44
Likes
89
Location
Norway
#16
People are talking as if phase is either linear or not linear. That isn't the case. You can make the phase flat at one point, but it will no longer be flat at another point.

Example: you have a 2-way speaker using 4th order linkwitz-riley crossovers. The acoustic center (where the two drivers are in phase) is approximately in the middle of them, since they're both 180 degrees out of phase (in different directions). Moving above or below this acoustic center slowly makes the phase relationship different, until you encounter the point where they are almost perfectly out of phase with each other, typically seen as a big null vertically (in both directions). This is also why most loudspeakers have all drivers aligned vertically instead of horizontally, because you'd rather have these nulls in the vertical response than the horizontal response.

The only way to get truly linear phase at any listening angle is to use a completely coaxial system, where there is no difference of distance between drivers regardless of your angle to them. Of course, as Floyd Toole puts it: "humans don't hear waveforms", so I consider phase rather unimportant. We do hear the resulting frequency response deviations of these waveforms, however.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
1,074
Likes
731
#17
People are talking as if phase is either linear or not linear. That isn't the case. You can make the phase flat at one point, but it will no longer be flat at another point.

Example: you have a 2-way speaker using 4th order linkwitz-riley crossovers. The acoustic center (where the two drivers are in phase) is approximately in the middle of them, since they're both 180 degrees out of phase (in different directions). Moving above or below this acoustic center slowly makes the phase relationship different, until you encounter the point where they are almost perfectly out of phase with each other, typically seen as a big null vertically (in both directions). This is also why most loudspeakers have all drivers aligned vertically instead of horizontally, because you'd rather have these nulls in the vertical response than the horizontal response.

The only way to get truly linear phase at any listening angle is to use a completely coaxial system, where there is no difference of distance between drivers regardless of your angle to them. Of course, as Floyd Toole puts it: "humans don't hear waveforms", so I consider phase rather unimportant. We do hear the resulting frequency response deviations of these waveforms, however.
Really learnt something here, so if I understand correctly, say for a 80x0 Genelec with 2 way analog crossover, the acoustic centre (at top of woofer as indicated in the manual?) should have linear phase, while if I move around the sound becomes out of phase and all those non room mode cancellations will be what I heard as difference rather than phase?
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
44
Likes
89
Location
Norway
#18
Really learnt something here, so if I understand correctly, say for a 80x0 Genelec with 2 way analog crossover, the acoustic centre (at top of woofer as indicated in the manual?) should have linear phase, while if I move around the sound becomes out of phase and all those non room mode cancellations will be what I heard as difference rather than phase?
My example was just for a 4th order linkwitz-riley filter (which is probably one of the more common crossovers). Technically the phase isn't "linear" in an absolute sense, because the drivers are 180 degrees out of phase in different directions, which sums to 360 degrees, one full cycle out of phase where the tweeter is ahead of the woofer. Generally this is just shown as the phase "wrapping around" in a measurement, and it's of little audible consequence.

Additionally, the phase in this case only becomes wacky when you're moving in the vertial plane, because as mentioned, the distance from the center of the drivers is constant in the horizontal plane. Your conclusion is pretty much correct though, the weird cancellations you hear that aren't room related will be from the inter-phase relationship between the drivers.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
46
Likes
32
#19
Really learnt something here, so if I understand correctly, say for a 80x0 Genelec with 2 way analog crossover, the acoustic centre (at top of woofer as indicated in the manual?) should have linear phase, while if I move around the sound becomes out of phase and all those non room mode cancellations will be what I heard as difference rather than phase?
Genelec´s 80x0 don´t try to have linear phase and don´t have it, no matter where you place yourself. Their phase is never linear (same goes for the Ones...). On the other hand, those speakers designed for linear phase do have it at the intended listening point.
 
Top Bottom