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Anything better than Genelec?

BenB

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#21
I am somewhat puzzled about the lack of phase linearity in most of Genelec´s monitors. Is there any one with linear phase besides the 8350? I think linear phase is more important than coaxial arrangement... The 8351 seems a step down from the 8350... It looks Neumann is ahead in this aspect with their Kh-750 and MA-1 "phase linearizers", and with the already linear Kh-80.
On the other hand, the phase issue can always be solved with Dirac. If you count with that, you can concentrate in other aspects of performance and the number of reference-level speakers is multiplied... (that is my current situation, I don´t know which route to take). :)
I put together a controlled phase distortion ABX test. You can find details here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/phase-distortion-abx-testing.18709/

Please let me know what you think.
 

thewas

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#22
This regard for phase linearity seems to be shared by the engineers at Neumann, PSI Audio, Hedd or KS Digital, or by Sound on Sound reviews.
Having personally been to Neumann workshops held by the chief engineer of Neumann monitors a couple of times I know that he doesn't really find it very important and the audible differences are rather very small (we could it switch in real time on their top model O500C while listening to music) that's why for some time after the production end of the O500C they didn't offer it all. I guess they use it now since DSP chips are more affordable as its a more a nice to have as an answer to other companies who offer it too.
We shouldn't also forget that full linear phase down to the bass means a latency of around 1s which is unusable for many monitoring tasks.
 

tmtomh

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#23
Of course, as Floyd Toole puts it: "humans don't hear waveforms", so I consider phase rather unimportant. We do hear the resulting frequency response deviations of these waveforms, however.
Wow - thanks for this! Such a clear and concise explanation of how phase is, and is not, important.

It seems like yet another "data point" in support of what has probably been the most eye-opening bit of measurement-related learning for me at this site: frequency response measurements capture a lot more of the total performance picture of gear than one might think.

As for what's better than Genelec, the first thing that came to mind for me is Neumann - I'm hard-pressed to think of a Genelec setup that would meet or exceed the KH310 for the same price. (Of course, in light of the phase discussion, I am mindful that only 2 of the 310's 3 drivers are vertically arrayed, but still....).
 

EPC

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#24
Wow - thanks for this! Such a clear and concise explanation of how phase is, and is not, important.

It seems like yet another "data point" in support of what has probably been the most eye-opening bit of measurement-related learning for me at this site: frequency response measurements capture a lot more of the total performance picture of gear than one might think.

As for what's better than Genelec, the first thing that came to mind for me is Neumann - I'm hard-pressed to think of a Genelec setup that would meet or exceed the KH310 for the same price. (Of course, in light of the phase discussion, I am mindful that only 2 of the 310's 3 drivers are vertically arrayed, but still....).
The 8340s are around £900, and don't require the sub for the GLM. What benefit would the KH310 bring over those pair of Genelecs?
(Aside from the lower frequency response)
I do intend to purchase a sub at a later date, but the monitors are my main concern at the moment.
 

tmtomh

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#25
The 8340s are around £900, and don't require the sub for the GLM. What benefit would the KH310 bring over those pair of Genelecs?
(Aside from the lower frequency response)
I do intend to purchase a sub at a later date, but the monitors are my main concern at the moment.
If low-end FR is not a major concern then the options become more plentiful and inexpensive, for sure.
 

YSC

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#26
Having personally been to Neumann workshops held by the chief engineer of Neumann monitors a couple of times I know that he doesn't really find it very important and the audible differences are rather very small (we could it switch in real time on their top model O500C while listening to music) that's why for some time after the production end of the O500C they didn't offer it all. I guess they use it now since DSP chips are more affordable as its a more a nice to have as an answer to other companies who offer it too.
We shouldn't also forget that full linear phase down to the bass means a latency of around 1s which is unusable for many monitoring tasks.
I am really confused... (no idea what phase linearity actually is... damn the arts stream student) does it means that in full linear phase type of speaker the bass would have 1s latency compared to the highs??? If the answer is yes I would think in my dumb mind that having closes to zero latency is much more imprtant than phas latency... I won't want the bombing sound effect to come 1s later which is very noticeable..
 

thewas

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#27
I am really confused... (no idea what phase linearity actually is... damn the arts stream student) does it means that in full linear phase type of speaker the bass would have 1s latency compared to the highs??? If the answer is yes I would think in my dumb mind that having closes to zero latency is much more imprtant than phas latency... I won't want the bombing sound effect to come 1s later which is very noticeable..
No no, it means that the signal/music you listen is delayed for a second, which is a problem for applications like live mixing, watching movies etc.
 

YSC

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#28
No no, it means that the signal/music you listen is delayed for a second, which is a problem for applications like live mixing, watching movies etc.
Ah I get it, but if so personally I would never choose a linear phase monitor... my speaker is 50% music listening and 50% movie and gaming use, >5ms is sometimes noticeable in game and for 1s it's just... totally unacceptable. if so I fully understand why Genelec and quite some Neumann don't implement them. Even for TV speaker it's way too laggy
 

dfuller

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#29
At some level preference comes into this. But, for me, I find the aluminum cabinet Genelecs to be just way too flattering sounding.
 

Frank Dernie

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#30
I tested myself to see if I could hear phase changes about 45 years ago. I couldn't and haven't worried about phase since.
Mind you the speakers I tested myself with didn't have perfect phase response, but a "square wave" continued to sound just the same even after it stopped looking square.
I must say this was not news though, even back then.
Having perfect phase reproduction -may- help with some old recordings made using just 1 microphone per channel.
Of course a recording made by mixing multiple manipulated channels has no phase coherence anyway, so it is just as well we don't hear it.
 
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dfuller

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#32
How could the cabinet do that?
It's not the cabinet itself, just the way the speakers sound. Every speaker from the 8XXX line I've tried has been that way. Nice to listen to, sucky for working on.
 
OP
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Pearljam5000

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Thread Starter #33
It's not the cabinet itself, just the way the speakers sound. Every speaker from the 8XXX line I've tried has been that way. Nice to listen to, sucky for working on.
Ugly sounding is not necessarily more accurate
 

q3cpma

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#34
It's not the cabinet itself, just the way the speakers sound. Every speaker from the 8XXX line I've tried has been that way. Nice to listen to, sucky for working on.
I'm doubtful, honestly. The 8xx0 do have a characteristic directivity that's not quite CD but the Ones, by virtue of being 3-way, are nothing like that (narrowing very smoothly).
 

dfuller

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#35
Ugly sounding is not necessarily more accurate
While this is true, I'm not talking about ugly sounding. More that mixes that sound done on the 8XX0 series sound half-done elsewhere, at least for me.

I've had decent luck with the 10XX series, though. Those are cool.
 

preload

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#36
Depends on what you count as better... non coaxial counted I instantly can think of Kii Three, D&D 8C and Mesanovic RTM10.
How do you know that the Kii Three, D&D 8C, and RTM10 sound better than, say, an 8351B or 8361A? Have you or others done direct comparisons in the same room?
 

TimF

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#37
Which car/shirt/pizza brand or model is better than XYZ? :rolleyes:

Everything in the world is a compromise, only when you clearly define which criteria are important and which not a better or worse can be decided and even then its often unambiguous.
The one sentence statement by thewas, which was so pithy as to constitute a paragraph, was well stated.
 

richard12511

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#38
GML doesn´t apply phase correction (well, I think it does to subwoofers, but that is not the point here). GML can´t tell to Genelec monitors to do something that is not already designed into those monitors, it only tells the speakers what settings to use (EQ, delay and level, I understand, please correct me if otherwise).
Neumann on the other hand, uses the Kh-750 to do the phase linearization of their analog speakers (Kh-120, Kh-310, Kh-420). MA-1 adds room correction (but doesn´t replace the Kh-750).
I guess phase linearity is not such a big deal if you listen mostly to processed music, but for natural acoustics (or for processed music that aspires to resemble natural acoustics, or to exploit human perception of natural acoustics) it makes very much sense to me. This regard for phase linearity seems to be shared by the engineers at Neumann, PSI Audio, Hedd or KS Digital, or by Sound on Sound reviews.
Then again, Dirac allows you to correct any speaker´s phase (also Genelecs :)), widening the options...
Do you have research to support the audible importance of phase linearity?

I'm using Dirac Live atm, as I've found it works better than GLM.
 

EPC

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#39
Do you have research to support the audible importance of phase linearity?

I'm using Dirac Live atm, as I've found it works better than GLM.
What are the tweeters like on Genelecs?
I find soft dome tweeters a bit... well, soft...
I.e. not as transient, like a bit of fabric is covering the tweeter or something.
And I find ribbon tweeter like the Adams, to be transient, but have this like, artificial sounding high end (for lack of a better explanation).

These are just my interpretations, not sure if anyone can relate...
But for anyone that does relate, how do you find the Genelecs?
 
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