After 9 Months of Research - Rate My First System (Before I Buy It)!

[Multicore]

I think turntables are very much a luxury just like analog film. Everyone knows that digital is cheaper and more convenient. So getting a turntable is about having something that looks cool and the craftsmanship can be appreciated more easily than clever circuit layout and multiple planes on a PCB can.

Fair point. Even for the dusty groove types it still qualifies and self indulgent.

 

[Multicore]

I suppose then, unless it's a Technics, generally speaking, a belt drive is preferred; is that correct?

No. The motor noise is as easily coupled mechanically and magnetically to the output signal in either case. Minimizing the coupling is required engineering either way. The endless belt vs direct vs idler drive arguments are endless for a reason: that choice is not decisive on its own.

 

[GXAlan]

I suppose then, unless it's a Technics, generally speaking, a belt drive is preferred; is that correct?

I don’t think that’s accurate. I think there was a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment when it came to audio by the audiophile press. There is a claim that the servo was more audible than incorrect speed that was steady.

Unlike DACs, I think it is generally safe to say that you get what you pay for in build quality between $500, $1000, $1500, $2000. Above $2000 and it’s a wild card if you are getting added performance or not.

In the present day, Technics has great direct drive models since they start above $1000. However Music Hall’s Stealth is well made, Cambridge Audio’s Alva is well made, Denon’s DP-3000NE is well made. It’s the budget $300-500 direct drive turntables that might not compete as favorably to the belt drive equivalents. When BOM is constrained, presumably the belt drive works better as an overall mix.

Once you have sky is limit pricing, you can engineer around the challenges of each.

I'm still spending about €900-€1,000, one way or another, but I've trashed the "balanced" voodoo I initially succumbed to. It's likely a TT and upgraded cartridge of some sort.

Balanced turntables is less voodoo than expensive speaker cables but like everything, “it depends”.

I wouldn’t change out an unbalanced system to balanced if I wasn’t having problems, but I believe @JP is a big proponent of balanced turntables and has measured superior performance.

(there are those who suggest that reduction of common mode noise is “X” but the need to run twice the circuitry in the phono stage increases noise there.)

 

[Multicore]

So I put on Hornitus from the 2004 2LP release of Metri by Ø (Mika Vainio, RIP) and it sounds terrible. Then I put on my rip of the 1994 CD to compare and it made the LP sound even worse, really dreadful, in all three: tonality and noise and distortion. Now what? Is it a bad pressing or or damaged disk is my cart shot is the TT not set up right or what?

This is why I hate vinyl playback. Debugging and fixing this is going to be so much damn work. So annoying.

On the plus side I have now lost all interest in trying to find a SL-1400MK2. I looked on Reverb and Ebay earlier today, I'm ashamed to say. Thanks @56suited ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ )

 

[Multicore]

I wouldn’t change out an unbalanced system to balanced if I wasn’t having problems, but I believe @JP is a big proponent of balanced turntables and has measured superior performance.

Measuring superior performance that makes no practical difference could seem to be the raison d'être of ASR if one were to set about reading through Amirs DAC reviews. Luxuriating in the knowledge that your DAC does better than 110 dB SINAD and your amp is over 95 is equivalent to luxuriating in the knowledge that your cable metals are 99.lotsmorelines% free of oxygen. "Good enough" is a legit engineering concept about verification. Engineering superior performance beyond that point for its own sake is something else, some kind of artistic practice I suppose.

 

[A Surfer]

I think turntables are very much a luxury just like analog film. Everyone knows that digital is cheaper and more convenient. So getting a turntable is about having something that looks cool and the craftsmanship can be appreciated more easily than clever circuit layout and multiple planes on a PCB can.

A turntable is just like any other mass produced item with soulless electronics inside a fabricated casing. Not sure they differ enough enough from anything else in the audio world to deserve to be called crafted. Except of course the esoteric, no price is too high stuff.

Buy some original art. There's some craftsmanship. Sculpture, painting, glass or pottery. That's the good stuff.

 

[MarkS]

So I put on Hornitus from the 2004 2LP release of Metri by Ø (Mika Vainio, RIP) and it sounds terrible. Then I put on my rip of the 1994 CD to compare and it made the LP sound even worse, really dreadful, in all three: tonality and noise and distortion.

What is your judgment of the sound quality of the youtube version that you linked?

 

[Multicore]

What is your judgment of the sound quality of the youtube version that you linked?

Good question so I have now compared. It sounds like my CD rip. I streamed them both to the WiiM in my main system. The YouTube is streaming with Opus format ID 251 which is around 170 kbps, though we don't know how it was uploaded. My old rip is 192 kbps AAC.

The WiiM connects with coax to a MiniDSP Flex. The TT also connects to the Flex and goes through the same room correction.

 

[MarkS]

And so that means it sounds good? (I think it sounds good, as best I can tell for something where none of the sounds exist in real life. My question was because earlier I had thought you said that the CD sounded bad, but now I realize that I misread you. So my question is really moot. Sorry for the distraction!)

 

[Multicore]

And so that means it sounds good? (I think it sounds good, as best I can tell for something where none of the sounds exist in real life. My question was because earlier I had thought you said that the CD sounded bad, but now I realize that I misread you. So my question is really moot. Sorry for the distraction!)

No no. The CD and the YouTube sound fine. I meant the LP sounded bad so I compared with the CD {that sounds fine) and that made the LP sound worse by comparison.

 

[MarkS]

Yeah, I figured that out after I posted my question! My bad.

 

[56suited]

UPDATE
Purchases have been made. ETA is ~3-5 days. Here's what I bought:

• Technics SL-1500C. I know the 100C is the same but slightly cheaper, and without the onboard phono stage, but I wanted to buy local (like, down the street) so I can look the guy in the face if the thing is a dud. I also benefit from an in-store service coverage that was free of charge.
  • I also purchased a pre-mounted Ortofon Blue
• WiiM Ultra
• Neumann KH120 II (from Thomann)
• Isolation pads for the speakers
• Cost-effective HDMI, and TOSLINK cables. The turntable comes with its own RCAs
• A vinyl brush

Spending some time browsing room treatments, now. I am relieved and excited. Total cost all-in: 3.2K EUR.

So...rate my 'now' system vs. my first post I think I did OK and followed most of the advice.

 

[Galliardist]

UPDATE
Purchases have been made. ETA is ~3-5 days. Here's what I bought:

• Technics SL-1500C. I know the 100C is the same but slightly cheaper, and without the onboard phono stage, but I wanted to buy local (like, down the street) so I can look the guy in the face if the thing is a dud. I also benefit from an in-store service coverage that was free of charge.
  • I also purchased a pre-mounted Ortofon Blue
• WiiM Ultra
• Neumann KH120 II (from Thomann)
• Isolation pads for the speakers
• Cost-effective HDMI, and TOSLINK cables. The turntable comes with its own RCAs
• A vinyl brush

Spending some time browsing room treatments, now. I am relieved and excited. Total cost all-in: 3.2K EUR.

So...rate my 'now' system vs. my first post I think I did OK and followed most of the advice.

If you are siting the speakers on a bench/desk/table you may get problems if you don't raise or angle them. Bounce from the desk surface. If you have the turntable and speakers on the same surface/don't site the turntable correctly, you may get some feedback to the turntable. On the other hand, you may be fine - only one way to find out!

The equipment itself should be fine, and an improvement on your initial list.

As you are listening in near field, I'm not sure what room treatments you will need.

Congratulations on making your decision and let's hope it all works out fine.

 

[56suited]

If you are siting the speakers on a bench/desk/table you may get problems if you don't raise or angle them. Bounce from the desk surface. If you have the turntable and speakers on the same surface/don't site the turntable correctly, you may get some feedback to the turntable. On the other hand, you may be fine - only one way to find out!

The equipment itself should be fine, and an improvement on your initial list.

As you are listening in near field, I'm not sure what room treatments you will need.

Congratulations on making your decision and let's hope it all works out fine.

They'll be on a ~40cm deep console shelf, and I am using isolation pads to dampen any adverse effects on the turntable and for surface bounce. Technics are built like tanks, so I am hoping it all works out. Also, playback volume will never exceed 85db because my wife is a dragon. The speakers will actually be pointed right at my listening spot, and my head will be aligned right between the tweeter and the woofer, even if I slouch. At 1.0-1.5m listening distance, I am guardedly optimistic.

Crossed fingers!

 

[Mnyb]

Because based on a few reports of failures and the following detailed report of service I have the impression that KEF not as good at engineering active boxes as it is at passive. KEF clearly does excellent performance and value for money in passives so if it were me I'd prefer to use separate amps.

KEF LSX Teardown and Repair

A friend of mine gave me these speakers for repair if possible, or at least to understand what was happening. According to him, the speakers would operate for a couple of minutes, then the sound would fade away progressively to 0. After a few tries and a firmware update the speakers no longer...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It’s a bit of leap of fate , but their actives actually measures and performs even better acoustically ? What I’ve seen .

But watch me weep when all my active KEF’s break

 

[dominikz]

TOSLINK cables.

Perhaps I overlooked something, but I believe you will need coaxial (copper) rather than TOSLINK (optical) cable to connect WiiM Ultra to the KH 120 II digitally, and similarly you will need another coaxial cable to connect the two KH 120 II together.

Otherwise seems like a very high-quality setup! Hope you get a lot of years of audio enjoyment out of it!

 

[JeremyFife]

UPDATE
Purchases have been made. ETA is ~3-5 days. Here's what I bought:

• Technics SL-1500C. I know the 100C is the same but slightly cheaper, and without the onboard phono stage, but I wanted to buy local (like, down the street) so I can look the guy in the face if the thing is a dud. I also benefit from an in-store service coverage that was free of charge.
  • I also purchased a pre-mounted Ortofon Blue
• WiiM Ultra
• Neumann KH120 II (from Thomann)
• Isolation pads for the speakers
• Cost-effective HDMI, and TOSLINK cables. The turntable comes with its own RCAs
• A vinyl brush

Spending some time browsing room treatments, now. I am relieved and excited. Total cost all-in: 3.2K EUR.

So...rate my 'now' system vs. my first post I think I did OK and followed most of the advice.

Sweet

... and well done for escaping that 'analysis paralysis' and actually getting something!
No point in a post mortem review or endless fussing about what might have been - you have a system to be proud of, and one that will give you pleasure for years.
Now listen to some music

 

[Multicore]

It’s a bit of leap of fate , but their actives actually measures and performs even better acoustically ? What I’ve seen .

But watch me weep when all my active KEF’s break

You never know. The Meridian M30 boxes I bought in 85 are still in regular use without having needed service.

 

[caught gesture]

UPDATE
Purchases have been made. ETA is ~3-5 days. Here's what I bought:

• Technics SL-1500C. I know the 100C is the same but slightly cheaper, and without the onboard phono stage, but I wanted to buy local (like, down the street) so I can look the guy in the face if the thing is a dud. I also benefit from an in-store service coverage that was free of charge.
  • I also purchased a pre-mounted Ortofon Blue
• WiiM Ultra
• Neumann KH120 II (from Thomann)
• Isolation pads for the speakers
• Cost-effective HDMI, and TOSLINK cables. The turntable comes with its own RCAs
• A vinyl brush

Spending some time browsing room treatments, now. I am relieved and excited. Total cost all-in: 3.2K EUR.

So...rate my 'now' system vs. my first post I think I did OK and followed most of the advice.

RCA (75 Ω): S/PDIF according to https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/products/monitors/kh-120-ii are the cables you need

 

[Mnyb]

You never know. The Meridian M30 boxes I bought in 85 are still in regular use without having needed service.

My Meridian 5200 worked flawlessly ( my non speaker meridian gear broke regularly)