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After 9 Months of Research - Rate My First System (Before I Buy It)!

The KH120 get pretty low, so my cross will likely be around 50Hz I'm guessing. I could be wrong, because I know nothing...but am I thinking correctly?
Yes, about right.

And, with subs the direction it's facing doesn't matter as much - it's because the wavelengths are much bigger than the speaker itself (50hz is 6.86 meters) so they are effectively omnidirectional.

B&W will work but they are pretty overpriced for what they can do IMO.

If nobody has shared it yet @sweetchaos keeps track of a LOT of subs in this sheet - you can make a copy and sort by (e.g.) output at 20hz and price, and filter by size. :)
 
What's important about cables apart from their integrity,in small spaces,is flexibility.
Specially with light devices.

And not only angle-wise but twisting them too (at a sane point) .
Not all are nice in that way.

I ask again,have you thought about the balanced>unbalanced matter that you will face?
I think so, in that I'm decided on optical to the KH120s, and I'm foregoing the phono stage. The turntable is what I'm thinking through now, and with great relief, because the speakers were my largest source of indecision and anxiety.
 
I think so, in that I'm decided on optical to the KH120s, and I'm foregoing the phono stage. The turntable is what I'm thinking through now, and with great relief, because the speakers were my largest source of indecision and anxiety.
It wouldn't hurt to send a mail to the phono company and ask about this matter,some devices really don't like to short its output or left floating.
 
It wouldn't hurt to send a mail to the phono company and ask about this matter,some devices really don't like to short its output or left floating.
I do not understand this, not because you've said anything wrong. I just don't know these details and what they mean.
 
I do not understand this, not because you've said anything wrong. I just don't know these details and what they mean.
Ok.sanity check cause maybe I didn't understand well:
You plan to use a phono with balanced outputs (XLR,TRS,whatever) and the next device's input is unbalanced (RCA) ,right?
 
Ok.sanity check cause maybe I didn't understand well:
You plan to use a phono with balanced outputs (XLR,TRS,whatever) and the next device's input is unbalanced (RCA) ,right?
No. The turntable will output balanced to the phono stage, then RCA to the preamp (0.7m), then optical to the speakers. At least that was the original plan.

I could go balanced all the way, end to end, with different components, but that's likely overkill as my interconnects are 1m or less. I think the only place a balanced connection helps is from a MC cartridge output to phono stage.
 
No. The turntable will output balanced to the phono stage, then RCA to the preamp (0.7m), then optical to the speakers. At least that was the original plan.
All good then,forget what I said.
 
I'd like to suggest doing this in stages. Start with the speakers (no sub) & streaming, get that set up and play around with speaker placement and EQ. If you can't get sound you like, then it's time to consider more flexible EQ / automated room correction. THEN consider adding a TT (if you still want to), and a sub if you feel the bass is inadequate (I am betting that you will not feel this way).

My vinyl record collection and TT have sat unused for years. Almost all the records that I thought were irreplaceable rarities (eg San Francisco punk bands from the late 70s) are, astonishingly to me, now available on streaming. And the sound quality on streaming is always at least as good (and usually far better) than I ever got from my AR EB-101 + Shure V15 Type V.
 
Did you have a look at this seller of used HIFI? All these wonderfull turntables will make your pick made from plastic parts look very old...


If I would buy a record player, one of the first to look at are the Thorens models. Not the new ones, those often nearly unused older ones you find there. A combination of perfect sound with very long lasting hardware. Sometimes the wall warts used at power supply fail (easy to replace) when people burry them under other stuff. Micro Seiki, AR, CEC, Denon and so many other beautifull options. DUAL is overestimated, only the very expensive flagship TT are a match to the upper class. A good source for information on older gear is hifiengine.com don't pay too much!

PS did anyone tell you that the pickup is responsible for 98-100% of a TT's sound?
 
Had a look and something like a Thorens TD-320 is a steal for 350€, leaving quite some room for a great pickup. It doesn't get much better than that. Better buy that new, used only very carefull and quite cheap, as you can not know how old it is. Rubber suspension parts in a cartridge age.)
 
Just realized how ridiculous cheap record player are offered used, in mint condition. That may be the heirs of audiophiles a little older than me, that do not appreciate grandpop's treasured TT, selling it without lower limit. A buyers market.
 
I use Genelec 8030c, NAD C658 DAC and a REL T5 sub in a 10’ x 11’ x 10’ room. The NAD has Dirac handling room correction. A miniDSP Flex that does everything the NAD does (including Dirac) at a fraction of the price is the only change I’d make. It’s a small room but it sounds great. Small rooms have lots of room mode issues and you'll be happy to have room correction. And as someone said a few posts ago, get a used turntable.
 
Interesting to read about motor noise on a Project turntable - I bought a Rega Planar 3, probably about 8 years ago, with a similar problem. With the turntable spinning, just moving the needle over the motor area causes quite a large buzz through the speakers. You can hear it even with music playing - a very poor design.

I still have the thing in the attic (my wife won’t let me sell it as it was her birthday gift) but it’s only been used once or twice in its life and sounds immediately and very obviously worse than a cd.
That's why a technics is my recommendation, they don't have motor noise. Even the older ones from the 1970's like my SL1500MKI. Motor noise and that they are very sensitive to touch noises were the reason i sold my Project Debut Carbon DC over a deceade ago...

The AT does not have the motor noise neighter (at least i never heared it), but it's sensible to touch noises (altough a lot less than a Project or a Rega). It's the cheap one to get if you can't afford a Technics or other similar solid build turntables and it will last a long time (a friend has a 15 years old variation of it, still mint). And if you buy a technics, an SL1500C or SL100C are the good ones, the more expensive ones are better, but not that it matters so not really worth it. If you can find a good second hand SL1200MKII or SL1210MKII (no other) in good shape, that is also good. They are not cheap altough as they are still very popular, also among dj's.
 
Oh, the Airpax motors aren't hum-field free and decks made after 2000 or so, used adhesive rings to hold the motor in place on the plinth laminate (sounds awful, doesn't it) with no metallic content above (laminate, then glass platter. I can scan HiFi Choice tests with some objective data if required.
I've no doubt the motor had magnetic leakage, but they were used in similar positions in a load of decks. Its leakage wouldn't have been affected by location close to a transformer, which is what you originally mentioned with regard to amps. The Regas were never great at any sort of mechanical isolation. I don't remember seeing measurements that separated out the source of noise (magnetic coupling vs. mechanical vibration) but would be interested if you have them. I imagine direct drive manufacturers have to pay close attention to magnetic shielding since the motor coils are close to the cartridge on the inner grooves.
 
I've no doubt the motor had magnetic leakage, but they were used in similar positions in a load of decks. Its leakage wouldn't have been affected by location close to a transformer, which is what you originally mentioned with regard to amps. The Regas were never great at any sort of mechanical isolation. I don't remember seeing measurements that separated out the source of noise (magnetic coupling vs. mechanical vibration) but would be interested if you have them. I imagine direct drive manufacturers have to pay close attention to magnetic shielding since the motor coils are close to the cartridge on the inner grooves.
Rega decks of the type we're discussing, have no metal between motor and pickup, as said motor is attached to a thin but strong layer of laminate with a glass or bakelite platter above. the pickups I've suggested shouldn't cause any issues. The 24VAC motors now used may well be better though...

The SL1200mk2 had its mains transformer directly below the platter (my SL1500s had the transformer under the top deck plate casting) and this could interfere slightly with low output MC pickups a little. Common practice here with the techie 'gurus' ten-fifteen years back was to remove said transformer and site it outside the deck itself, this then leading to other mods, started by 'Timestep and continued by other me-too people -


You lot are better out of this, as to venture this way lies anal madness of a sort...
 
I think so, in that I'm decided on optical to the KH120s, and I'm foregoing the phono stage. The turntable is what I'm thinking through now, and with great relief, because the speakers were my largest source of indecision and anxiety.

or in PDF


or buy the book.
 
No. The turntable will output balanced to the phono stage, then RCA to the preamp (0.7m), then optical to the speakers. At least that was the original plan.

I could go balanced all the way, end to end, with different components, but that's likely overkill as my interconnects are 1m or less. I think the only place a balanced connection helps is from a MC cartridge output to phono stage.
Like I said before, in abstract terms and divorced from a specific application, balanced can be an advantage when unbalanced yields too much noise. When unbalanced does the job then balanced has no advantage, i.e. they both meet the spec and they are equal in practicice.

In the world of phono, experience shows that unbalanced works fine nearly all the time. I think we can therefore safely assume that buying into Pro-Ject's balanced TTs, carts and phono stages has no practical advantage in terms of the audio signal. If someone's TT rig is experiencing perceptible noise then there are likely ways to fix that without needing to replace with balanced.

(So Pro-Ject's balanced smells to me of a classic audiophile marketing trick: Talk about a real technical difference between this and that as though it matters when in the given application it really doesn't and upsell to the more expensive. Subject the technobafflegab in this market to close analystic reading and you find the trick is used all over.)

There's a downside, however. It locks you into a much smaller "ecosystem" of interchangeable parts. That might not matter if you don't want to mess around with parts but for me it's undesirable. I prefer compatibility with as much gear out there. So I'd want a detachable headshell (Technics-compatibile since it's the most common), a moving magnet cart, and unbalanced phono output with RCA connectors.

One last personal blather thing: TT tech reached its zenith in the 1980s. The R&D that has gone into it since then is relatively very small (because CDs, digital downloads and streaming). Unsurprisingly then, many of the best TTs made new today are well-built versions or adaptions of 70s and 80s designs and are no better than the old gear except they come with warrantee and parts and service may be easier to find. As others have pointed out above, some of the old gear is hard to beat when it's in good nick. So when I look at the current offerings and marketing of Pro-Ject and Rega I just can't help wondering: What are they really trying to sell me? Is it the feelings that come from luxury shopping, à la LVMH, or is it a tool? A bit of both, if I try to be fair, but the correspondences between luxury and audiophile are a turn off for me.

This is a good read:

 
Like I said before, in abstract terms and divorced from a specific application, balanced can be an advantage when unbalanced yields too much noise. When unbalanced does the job then balanced has no advantage, i.e. they both meet the spec and they are equal in practicice.

The only caveat to that is that from measuring gear, it’s amazing to see how often ground loops actually occur. Admittedly, the 60 Hz contribution is well below the threshold of audibility but it is one instance where, if your gear supports balanced connections and the only expenses are the cables, it’s usually worth it.

There is an other argument that if your electronics aren’t fully balanced you are adding another conversion step from balanced to single ended. Again, that impact seems to be very small for most electronics, although the Accuphase E-270 tested here is one good example of a product where balanced connections for balanced connection’s sake, is damaging to the measured performance.


In the world of phono, experience shows that unbalanced works fine nearly all the time.
+1

This is because phono connections almost always mandate a separate signal ground wire which removes the ground loop problem. My Sharp RP-117 actually has no ground wire and avoids audible ground loops.


If someone's TT rig is experiencing perceptible noise then there are likely ways to fix that without needing to replace with balanced.

The motor seems to contribute a lot of noise. I think that matters the most. Next is the cartridge gain/phono.

One last personal blather thing: TT tech reached its zenith in the 1980s. The R&D that has gone into it since then is relatively very small (because CDs, digital downloads and streaming). Unsurprisingly then, many of the best TTs made new today are well-built versions or adaptions of 70s and 80s designs and are no better than the old gear except they come with warrantee and parts and service may be easier to find.
+1

The Shure V15 Type V has an ultra flat frequency response and 1 gram tracking force. We just don’t see anything like that anymore.

My bias is that automated vinyl cleaning machines like the DeGritter are superior to anything we had in the 80’s.

What are they really trying to sell me? Is it the feelings that come from luxury shopping, à la LVMH, or is it a tool? A bit of both, if I try to be fair, but the correspondences between luxury and audiophile are a turn off for me.

I think turntables are very much a luxury just like analog film. Everyone knows that digital is cheaper and more convenient. So getting a turntable is about having something that looks cool and the craftsmanship can be appreciated more easily than clever circuit layout and multiple planes on a PCB can.
 
I would also recommend getting a fairly inexpensive TT. They last for years and it probably will not be used all that much in reality. Throwing a lot of money into a TT at this time in the beginning of your journey into the whacky world of audio is just a waste of money. So, you can get your setup complete with whatever TT you want, and get it all set up and tell us how it sounds compared to the Bose box you have now. That will be VERY interesting! Wait, what? You haven't bought anything yet? Jeepers I am ready for a sound report. Now I have to wait and I am not a good person in the waiting game. I want it all NOW. Instant gratification is my game. Well, since I retired anyways.:)
 
The motor seems to contribute a lot of noise. I think that matters the most. Next is the cartridge gain/phono.
I suppose then, unless it's a Technics, generally speaking, a belt drive is preferred; is that correct?

I'm still spending about €900-€1,000, one way or another, but I've trashed the "balanced" voodoo I initially succumbed to. It's likely a TT and upgraded cartridge of some sort.
 
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