XLR or not? Haaaaalp! Ready to Buy and Cannot Decide!

[56suited]

Do I even need XLRs for cabling that will run 1.5m or less between components? If "yes", is using XLR cables important end-to-end? If "no", is it more important to have a balanced connection FROM my source, or TO my speakers? Here's why I am asking...I am interested three different TTs, the Pro-Ject X1 B and the Pro S, and the Technics SL1500 with a built-in phono stage (but only for the purpose of XLR from Pre-Amp to speakers). The TTs are interchangeable, except for options #2 and #4 that take advantage of the X1 B's balanced outputs.

I *think* #4 is the best set-up, with tons of scalability if I move the system out of my ~6m sq office...but obviously the most expensive, and there's 5 different pieces of equipment. Option #1 is the easiest to swallow, and considering I am running with less than 1.5m of cabling between any of the components...maybe XLR doesn't matter?

I was also toying with the idea of a miniDSP SHD...but that blows up my budget just for the sake of having XLR inputs and outputs. Damnit WiiM. Why couldn't you make the Ultra with XLR.

I have a PS4 and a Samsung TV that will be in very close proximity, but they would never be used simultaneously with the audio system (except for HDMI eARC, or SPDIF so I can use the speakers for audio).

COMPONENT	#1 (all RCA)	#2 (XLR TT to Phono)	#3 (XLR Pre-Amp to Speakers)	#4 (all XLR)
Turntable	Pro-Ject Debut Pro S	Pro-Ject X1 B	Technics SL1500C	Pro-Ject X1 B
Phono Stage		Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B		Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B
Streamer			WiiM Pro Plus	WiiM Pro Plus
Amp/Pre-Amp	WiiM Ultra	WiiM Ultra	Topping A70 Pro	Topping A70 Pro
Speakers	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5
$$$	~2,000EUR	~2,440EUR	~2,333EUR	~2,800EUR

 

[Speedskater]

It's not about the cable, it's about the interconnect system.
Balanced output stage >> balanced cable >> balanced input stage.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
For short interconnect cables (say 10 feet/3 meters) and both components powered from the same AC wall outlet, there is seldom a difference between XLR and RCA.

 

[56suited]

It's not about the cable, it's about the interconnect system.
Balanced output stage >> balanced cable >> balanced input stage.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
For short interconnect cables (say 10 feet/3 meters) and both components powered from the same AC wall outlet, there is seldom a difference between XLR and RCA.

I partially understand.

1. I'm running way shorter than 3m, and from the same 4-outlet power bar...so XLR is a nice to have, but likely not needed.
2. I don't understand the first point. I think you are saying balanced is a necessity if that is the only interconnects available in my system, which is not the case for any of the options. Not all of the components have XLR, but all of them do have RCA.

...in which case, if I wanted to run full XLR, I could do so at a later time, but I should go XLR all the way from source to speakers--not halfway, like I was asking about.

...so it's basically #1 or #4.

 

[DVDdoug]

You don't need balanced connections unless you have some kind of noise problem. You are more likely to get noise from long runs, like between buildings or around a live venue, etc.

It's more like "insurance" against noise pick-up through the wires, or ground loop noise. Balanced connections are standard in pro equipment (recording studios, radio/TV studios, and with live setups). It also means that mic cables and line-level cables are interchangeable and that's handy in "pro" situations where things are switched-around frequently.

You get most of the noise-reduction benefits from a balanced input, even if the source is unbalanced. It can sometimes be tricky going the other way around because you can end-up shorting one of the balanced (output) signal lines to ground and some equipment is not "happy with" that.

The connection between a phono pickup and preamp is more critical but phono preamps with balanced inputs are rare. BTW - Cartridges are actually balanced... There is no ground connection until you connect the preamp. Any noise picked-up there gets amplified about 1000 times by the preamp. But those cables should be short anyway (about 1 meter) because the cable capacitance affects frequency response. (Moving coil pickups are much more tolerant of load capacitance.)

Overall, analog vinyl is a weak link. The noise, frequency response, and distortion make vinyl technically inferior to digital. ...That doesn't stop some people from preferring vinyl and that's OK with me!

...And with vinyl, your choice of phono cartridge will have some affect on frequency response. But speakers/headphones usually have the biggest frequency response variations.

 

[56suited]

You don't need balanced connections unless you have some kind of noise problem. You are more likely to get noise from long runs, like between buildings or around a live venue, etc.

It's more like "insurance" against noise pick-up through the wires, or ground loop noise. Balanced connections are standard in pro equipment (recording studios, radio/TV studios, and with live setups). It also means that mic cables and line-level cables are interchangeable and that's handy in "pro" situations where things are switched-around frequently.

You get most of the noise-reduction benefits from a balanced input, even if the source is unbalanced. It can sometimes be tricky going the other way around because you can end-up shorting one of the balanced (output) signal lines to ground and some equipment is not "happy with" that.

The connection between a phono pickup and preamp is more critical but phono preamps with balanced inputs are rare. BTW - Cartridges are actually balanced... There is no ground connection until you connect the preamp. Any noise picked-up there gets amplified about 1000 times by the preamp. But those cables should be short anyway (about 1 meter) because the cable capacitance affects frequency response. (Moving coil pickups are much more tolerant of load capacitance.)

Overall, analog vinyl is a weak link. The noise, frequency response, and distortion make vinyl technically inferior to digital. ...That doesn't stop some people from preferring vinyl and that's OK with me!

I'm doing both digital and vinyl, so I can have all of the musical experiences - visceral, physical interaction with a medium, its artwork, etc., and the quality and quantity of music available through streaming services.

What I am hearing you say is "if you can go balanced from TT to phono stage, it's OK to go RCA to the pre-amp, and RCA to speakers", especially in a short cable length scenario...so, basically, some form of option 2 would work. That about right?

 

[Mort]

Unless you have grounding issues or really long speaker runs, you won't hear a difference.

I use XLR as interconnects because I can. They are 'better' but I wouldn't notice the difference most likely.

 

[56suited]

Unless you have grounding issues or really long speaker runs, you won't hear a difference.

I use XLR as interconnects because I can. They are 'better' but I wouldn't notice the difference most likely.

Except, I suppose, from the TT to the phono box if I'm using an MC cartridge. So this is confirming option 1, as I can always update cartridge and phono stage later. I appreciate your time responding! You're helping a rookie get into the hobby.

 

[Doodski]

Unless you have grounding issues or really long speaker runs, you won't hear a difference.

I use XLR as interconnects because I can. They are 'better' but I wouldn't notice the difference most likely.

In some examples of tests and spec of the single ended circuitry it was actually the better choice albeit prone to grounding issues.

 

[56suited]

In some examples of tests and spec of the single ended circuitry was actually the better choice albeit prone to grounding issues.

That's so strange. Is there an understanding why that would be the case?

 

[Doodski]

That's so strange. Is there an understanding why that would be the case?

Nothing that I am going to extrapolate upon today. I used differential/balanced calibration systems when I was a service tech and owned a differential output oscillator and a differential input oscilloscope but that does not make me a expert in the operation of said circuitry. The engineers here have a much much better handle on the various parameters, advantages and disadvantages of differential circuitry versus single ended circuitry than I. So I will bow out of this question and defer it to somebody more capable on the ins and outs of this specific stuff.

 

[Killingbeans]

That's so strange. Is there an understanding why that would be the case?

Just a speculation; The effectiveness of a balanced circuit is largely dependent on its symmetry. The cancellation effect is only working when both the negative and the positive signal are following each other as perfectly as possible. That means the tolerance of the components become more critical. A badly designed balanced circuit could, as far as I imagine, do more damage than good in cases with no common mode noise problems.

A good rule of thumb: Never assume that the use of specific components or circuit topologies will automatically give performance benefits. Implementation is king. That's why third party measurements are very important to have as a reference.

 

[56suited]

Just a speculation; The effectiveness of a balanced circuit is largely dependent on its symmetry. The cancellation effect is only working when both the negative and the positive signal are following each other as perfectly as possible. That means the tolerance of the components become more critical. A badly designed balanced circuit could, as far as I imagine, do more damage than good in cases with no common mode noise problems.

A good rule of thumb: Never assume that the use of specific components or circuit topologies will automatically give performance benefits. Implementation is king. That's why third party measurements are very important to have as a reference.

I'm leaning towards option 1 (different TT though) even more now. I can always upgrade my cartridge, go with a separate phono box, and test XLRs from the TT to the phono box at that point. Increasingly this is sounding like I don't need to XLR it all the way through to speakers. That takes a load off. Thank you for sharing your expertise.

 

[Scytales]

Just a speculation; The effectiveness of a balanced circuit is largely dependent on its symmetry. The cancellation effect is only working when both the negative and the positive signal are following each other as perfectly as possible. That means the tolerance of the components become more critical. A badly designed balanced circuit could, as far as I imagine, do more damage than good in cases with no common mode noise problems.

A good rule of thumb: Never assume that the use of specific components or circuit topologies will automatically give performance benefits. Implementation is king. That's why third party measurements are very important to have as a reference.

That.

And, as illustrated by Douglas Self in several of his books*, there actually is a noise penalty with the most widely used topologies of differential (balanced) line receiver compared to more mundane unbalanced receivers implemented with operational amplifiers.

So, what might be won on one side (common mode rejection ratio, hugely dependent of the perfection of the symmetry of impedances between the two legs of a balanced line) might actually be lost on the other side (self noise of active balanced input receiver circuit).

As pointed out by Doodski above, on can found reviews of hi-fi preamp or amp having for instance more noise level [hiss], ie less signal to noise ratio at equal signal level, at their balanced input compared to their unbalanced input.

Hence, generalisation such as "balanced better than unbalanced" should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing can replace thorough assessment of the performances of each particular device through exhaustive tests.

* Small Signal Audio Design, Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook, The Design of Active Crossovers.

 

[Hear Here]

Do I even need XLRs for cabling that will run 1.5m or less between components? If "yes", is using XLR cables important end-to-end? If "no", is it more important to have a balanced connection FROM my source, or TO my speakers? Here's why I am asking...I am interested three different TTs, the Pro-Ject X1 B and the Pro S, and the Technics SL1500 with a built-in phono stage (but only for the purpose of XLR from Pre-Amp to speakers). The TTs are interchangeable, except for options #2 and #4 that take advantage of the X1 B's balanced outputs.

I *think* #4 is the best set-up, with tons of scalability if I move the system out of my ~6m sq office...but obviously the most expensive, and there's 5 different pieces of equipment. Option #1 is the easiest to swallow, and considering I am running with less than 1.5m of cabling between any of the components...maybe XLR doesn't matter?

I was also toying with the idea of a miniDSP SHD...but that blows up my budget just for the sake of having XLR inputs and outputs. Damnit WiiM. Why couldn't you make the Ultra with XLR.

I have a PS4 and a Samsung TV that will be in very close proximity, but they would never be used simultaneously with the audio system (except for HDMI eARC, or SPDIF so I can use the speakers for audio).

COMPONENT	#1 (all RCA)	#2 (XLR TT to Phono)	#3 (XLR Pre-Amp to Speakers)	#4 (all XLR)
Turntable	Pro-Ject Debut Pro S	Pro-Ject X1 B	Technics SL1500C	Pro-Ject X1 B
Phono Stage		Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B		Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B
Streamer			WiiM Pro Plus	WiiM Pro Plus
Amp/Pre-Amp	WiiM Ultra	WiiM Ultra	Topping A70 Pro	Topping A70 Pro
Speakers	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5	Kali Audio IN-5
$$$	~2,000EUR	~2,440EUR	~2,333EUR	~2,800EUR

If your components have XLR balanced sockets, use them, but there's nothing to be gained unless both the sending and receiving component have these XLR sockets. If only one has them, you might as well use single-ended RCA cables, as you can't take advantage of the balanced circuit that one may have..

 

[Petrushka]

TLDR: short cables are good.

 

[antcollinet]

Just a speculation; The effectiveness of a balanced circuit is largely dependent on its symmetry. The cancellation effect is only working when both the negative and the positive signal are following each other as perfectly as possible.

This is often misunderstood, Balancing only needs to be about impedance balance. For noise cancellation, the signals don't have to be symmetrical at all. It works just as well if one is DC/0V and only the other carries the signal. Inverse symmetry just gives a bigger voltage to play with.

 

[56suited]

If your components have XLR balanced sockets, use them, but there's nothing to be gained unless both the sending and receiving component have these XLR sockets. If only one has them, you might as well use single-ended RCA cables, as you can't take advantage of the balanced circuit that one may have..

So if I go XLR from TT to phono stage, but then RCA from there to pre-amp to speakers, I'll still be alright.

And if that's true, going that route, with a separate phono stage, a MC cartridge, and XLRs are things I can do later.

 

[Killingbeans]

So if I go XLR from TT to phono stage, but then RCA from there to pre-amp to speakers, I'll still be alright.

Most likely, yes. The signal going from the pickup to the RIAA amp can be tiny in amplitude and far more impedance sensitive than the line level stuff.

But then again, vinyl playback has a relatively large and inevitable amount of self-noise. The interference from the rest of your setup probably has to be pretty bad to make the balanced connection worthwhile.

Honestly, the risk of audible adverse effects from going single ended all the way from pickup to speakers is likely miniscule. But going balanced all the way, just to have peace of mind, probably won't damage the experience either.

 

[56suited]

Most likely, yes. The signal going from the pickup to the RIAA amp can be tiny in amplitude and far more impedance sensitive than the line level stuff.

But then again, vinyl playback has a relatively large and inevitable amount of self-noise. The interference from the rest of your setup probably has to be pretty bad to make the balanced connection worthwhile.

Honestly, the risk of audible adverse effects from going single ended all the way from pickup to speakers is likely miniscule. But going balanced all the way, just to have peace of mind, probably won't damage the experience either.

Well then it's settled. I can get a TT that has a balanced output as optional, go RCA to the WiiM Ultra with a built in phono stage, and go RCA to the Kali IN-5.

Later, I can upgrade the cartridge to a MC, switch to a mini-XLR to a balanced phono stage, and either go RCA to the WiiM Ultra as a pre-amp/streamer AiO, or use it just as a streamer into a Topping A70 Pro for XLR all the way to the speakers. Loads of upgrade options, and even if I don't roll that way, still a pretty kick-ass system for my small office. Not bad for a first-time set-up.

Thank you Killingbeans and everybody else who's been super helpful here. Being a rookie is hard.

 

[Multicore]

Balanced signalling is important in the studio for the reasons shown in the image below.

1. Microphones produce a small signal which requires a lot of gain.

2. Cable runs can be significant exposing the cable with it's itty-bitty signal to EMI.

Nether of these are the case with the line level interconnects in your system. Your TT cart produces a small signal like the mics but it most likely doesn't have a balanced connection to the preamp, and this is the only place it could arguably help. It can be done with some carts and tone arms but it's rare and most people get by without.

XLR connectors are a good robust vehicle for balanced signalling.

So as far as your needs go, RCA vs XLR balanced vs unbalanced shouldn't be a decision criterion. Just don't try connecting XLR to RCA or visa versa.